# Judges "of color" to only be replaced by judges "of color" (proposed RI law) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484 "2017-02-10T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/1 "2017-02-10T17:36:18Z")
Came across [this proposed law](http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText17/HouseText17/H5302.pdf) while looking for something else. > [@](#): > > SECTION 1. Chapter 8-16.1 of the General Laws entitled “Judicial Selection” is hereby 1 amended by adding thereto the following section: > > 8-16.1-8. Replacement judges. > > Notwithstanding any provisions of this chapter to the contrary, whenever a judge from the superior court, family court, district court, traffic tribunal, workers’ compensation court or municipal court who is a person of color leaves the bench, for whatever reason, their replacement must be a person of color, so as not to diminish the number of judges of color in that court. > > SECTION 2. This act shall take effect upon passage. I have a feeling that this does not have a serious chance of being enacted into law, but don’t really know. But in any event, does anyone support this? Is it constitutional altogether? [Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? How much color would you need to have? What if you get appointed just after coming back from vacation and then your tan fades? :)] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/2 "2017-02-10T17:53:14Z")
Sounds unconstitutional (IANAL). I’d oppose it, but I’m willing to listen to arguments in favor. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/3 "2017-02-10T17:56:32Z")
I would oppose it as well. I think whoever is appointing judges should always look for ways to maintain and/or increase diversity on the bench. I don’t think this is a good way to accomplish that. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/4 "2017-02-10T17:58:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? How much color would you need to have? What if you get appointed just after coming back from vacation and then your tan fades? :)] “white” doesn’t have a legal meaning, but that didn’t stop them from putting it in laws starting in 1681. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/5 "2017-02-10T18:03:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Came across [this proposed law](http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText17/HouseText17/H5302.pdf) while looking for something else. > > I have a feeling that this does not have a serious chance of being enacted into law, but don’t really know. > > But in any event, does anyone support this? Is it constitutional altogether? > > [Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? How much color would you need to have? What if you get appointed just after coming back from vacation and then your tan fades? :)] I don’t see any state where this has a possibility of passing needing to pass a law like this. The states that might need it are the ones that would never pass it. With that said, I think its a horrible idea no matter what. I do not think the proponents of this law would see the replacement of Thurgood Marshall with Clarence Thomas as preferable to someone like Shirley Hufstedler (a white woman) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/6 "2017-02-10T18:05:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? Exactly the question I had, and one that’s very relevant to a law like this. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/7 "2017-02-10T18:10:33Z")
While I don’t agree with this law, despite understanding the misguided intent the “one drop rule” would be the most likely method. > [@](#): > > It defined race by the “one-drop rule”, defining as “colored” persons with any African or Native American ancestry > **[Racial Integrity Act of 1924](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924)** > > In 1924, the Virginia General Assembly enacted the Racial Integrity Act. The act reinforced racial segregation by prohibiting interracial marriage and classifying as "white" a person "who has no trace whatsoever of any blood other than Caucasian". The act, an outgrowth of eugenicist and scientific racist propaganda, was pushed by Walter Plecker, a white supremacist and eugenicist who held the post of registrar of the Virginia Bureau of Vital Statistics. > The Racial Integrity Act required that all... ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/8 "2017-02-10T19:55:03Z")
Not likely to be constitutional. Although affirmative action policies are complicated, with a lot of different and conflicting precedent in different areas, one guidestar is that any such policy to be constitutional must be tailored to some specific history of racial discrimination in the relevant jurisdiction. I’m sure Rhode Island has that relevant history, but almost certainly it is limited to some particular groups, like African-Americans or Latinos. If there is no modern history of discrimination against, say, American Indians in Rhode Island (or any other group that considers itself non-white), then the law would be very difficult to uphold. And given that it’s essentially a quota, and one not tied to any demographic figure, I think it would be nearly impossible. (That’s aside from whether the law is wise or workable, both of which seem dubious.) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/9 "2017-02-10T20:28:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m sure Rhode Island has that relevant history, but almost certainly it is limited to some particular groups, like African-Americans or Latinos. If there is no modern history of discrimination against, say, American Indians in Rhode Island (or any other group that considers itself non-white), then the law would be very difficult to uphold. And given that it’s essentially a quota, and one not tied to any demographic figure, I think it would be nearly impossible. So what if people “of color” was defined as American-Americans and/or Latinos? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/10 "2017-02-10T20:31:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Came across [this proposed law](http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText17/HouseText17/H5302.pdf) while looking for something else. > > I have a feeling that this does not have a serious chance of being enacted into law, but don’t really know. > > But in any event, does anyone support this? Is it constitutional altogether? > > [Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? How much color would you need to have? What if you get appointed just after coming back from vacation and then your tan fades? :)] So I’ve spent a bit of time poking around. Anastasia Williams, the bill’s sponsor, doesn’t appear to mention it on her website. I can’t find any interviews with her about it, or any background information. This looks to me like one of the foolish and totally ineffective things that rare liberasl do, and that conservatives delight in publicizing. No, it has no serious chance. No, no liberal I know supports this sort of foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/11 "2017-02-10T20:36:18Z")
As an aside, I’ve never cared for the term “persons of color”. I wear blue jeans, I don’t wear “jeans of blue”. (I do recognize that the term “colored persons” is regarded as offensive and tend to use the term “racial minorities” as a substitute “catch-all” term.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/12 "2017-02-10T21:33:14Z")
If “whites” can be replaced by “persons of color”, and “persons of color” can only be replaced by “persons of color”, then eventually… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/13 "2017-02-10T21:41:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If “whites” can be replaced by “persons of color”, and “persons of color” can only be replaced by “persons of color”, then eventually… …100% all-POC bench. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/14 "2017-02-10T21:44:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Came across [this proposed law](http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText17/HouseText17/H5302.pdf) while looking for something else. > > I have a feeling that this does not have a serious chance of being enacted into law, but don’t really know. > > But in any event, does anyone support this? Is it constitutional altogether? > > [Aside: does “person of color” have a legal meaning? If so, what is it? How much color would you need to have? What if you get appointed just after coming back from vacation and then your tan fades? :)] Identity politics run wild. “We don’t care about experience, work ethic, knowledge, or judgment… just color.” BTW, when did white stop being a color? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/15 "2017-02-10T21:51:13Z")
You guys all just want white judges, you’re racist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/16 "2017-02-10T21:56:49Z")
Why isn’t this posted in the “Stupid Liberal of the Day” BBQ Pit thread? It more than qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/17 "2017-02-10T22:46:05Z")
I can’t tell what’s going on with this bill, [Legiscan](https://legiscan.com/RI/bill/H5302/2017) says it was sent to the RI House Judiciary Committee, but doesn’t list it as a [bill pending before that committee.](https://legiscan.com/gaits/committee/1121?page=1) It’s hard to find any references to it; it appears to be one representative’s baby. > [@LinusK](#): > > BTW, when did white stop being a color? Probably [around this time.](https://sophiedaveyphoto.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/segregated.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/18 "2017-02-10T22:58:55Z")
Would [George Hamilton](https://www.google.com/search?q=george+hamilton&safe=active&biw=1131&bih=581&espv=2&tbm=isch&imgil=SFF-BZkGV9T5hM%253A%253BopojF-deja_qfM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Ftwitter.com%25252Fgeorgehamilton&source=iu&pf=m&fir=SFF-BZkGV9T5hM%253A%252CopojF-deja_qfM%252C_&usg=__eSEMZZhoc-pcil0aHlKMC4nE5Tg%3D&dpr=1.5&ved=0ahUKEwiDi5fI0IbSAhVHiFQKHY-NCGYQyjcIjAE&ei=kUWeWMP-F8eQ0gKPm6KwBg#imgrc=SFF-BZkGV9T5hM:) qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/19 "2017-02-10T23:28:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I can’t tell what’s going on with this bill, [Legiscan](https://legiscan.com/RI/bill/H5302/2017) says it was sent to the RI House Judiciary Committee, but doesn’t list it as a [bill pending before that committee.](https://legiscan.com/gaits/committee/1121?page=1) It’s hard to find any references to it; it appears to be one representative’s baby. It’s on the second page of that list, about halfway down the page. It looks like it’s one of three bills she proposed to try to get more people of color on the bench. She’s also proposed that at least 3 people of color be on the judicial nominating committee: > **[Rhode Island H5303 | 2017 | Regular Session](https://legiscan.com/RI/text/H5303/2017)** > > Bill Text (2017-03-28) Courts - Judicial Nominating Commission \[Committee recommended measure be held for further study\] and a bill to propose that the state aggressively solicit people of color from Mass. and Connecticut to apply for judicial appointments: > **[Rhode Island H5301 | 2017 | Regular Session](https://legiscan.com/RI/text/H5301/2017)** > > Bill Text (2017-03-28) Courts - Judicial Nominating Commission \[Committee recommended measure be held for further study\] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484/20 "2017-02-11T00:01:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So what if people “of color” was defined as American-Americans and/or Latinos? I don’t know, let’s think it through. Imagine the best possible facts for the bill’s sponsor: [ul] [li]There is a clear and recent history of open discrimination against AA or Latino judges[/li][li]The proportion of AA or Latino judges is less than their population among lawyers[/li][li]Other attempts to avoid bias toward white judges have failed[/li][li]Rigorous merit selection will still be employed, and there’s no reason to think the policy will favor less qualified judges[/li][li]Maybe even the process of selecting judges changed at some point to secure the balance of white judges (changing to statewide instead of district appointments or whatever)[/li][/ul] Given that (theoretical) context, would a measure requiring that there be no fewer than the current number of AA or Latino judges past constitutional muster? Still probably not, but I’m not sure it’s obviously foreclosed by controlling law. At that point, it starts to look more like the VRA’s requirement of minority representation, or minority-preference contractor policies that have survived scrutiny under _Croson_. The big split in jurisprudence right now is between (painting with a broad brush) conservatives who think the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits all race-conscious policymaking and liberals who think it permits race-conscious policies that are narrowly tailored to redress past discrimination. Kennedy is the swing vote on that, at the moment (assuming Gorsuch is confirmed), probably siding with the liberals. Even taking the liberals’ view, I think it’s hard to argue that a crude quota, tied arbitrarily to some current number, is a narrowly tailored response. But I think it’s possible to imagine facts that might make that so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judges-of-color-to-only-be-replaced-by-judges-of-color-proposed-ri-law/779484.md?page=2)