# Judging People From Past Homophobic Or Racist Statements? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497 "2022-04-26T18:52:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/21 "2022-04-27T20:08:40Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Should famous people (politicians, actors and other celebrities) be judged by homophobic and racist statements that they have made in the past? I say that, with the presumption that they at least have claimed to have changed. Ironically, growing up in a red state resulted in my having a lower bar for forgiving such statements. In my experience, the vast majority of the time people that spout such stuff are completely ignorant on the subject, and are simply regurgitating crap they grew up hearing. In the tv show “Justified,” when we first meet Raylan Given’s arch-nemesis Boyd Crowder, Boyd is a white supremacist and lectures Raylan on the evils of the Jews. Raylan asks “Boyd, have you ever even _met_ a Jewish person?” “Well…” I’ve had a ton of such conversations in Kentucky, growing up and returning after thirty years. I’m more likely to assume such speech is less hate and more ignorance (nowadays reinforced by echo chambers on the net). I’m much less forgiving about hateful _acts_. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/22 "2022-04-27T20:33:51Z")
As is often said, I generally think it undesirable to urge someone entirely by their words/actions during their worst moments, by their worst performance/actions. At least if those were isolated incidents. (No - not talking about prosecution/legal action for isolated misdeeds.) You also ought to consider the possibility of growth/change. As others have said, I had some views up into my 20s which truly embarrass me to remember today. I’m sure glad they didn’t have social media back then! And that I don’t do much on social media today. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/23 "2022-04-28T01:54:01Z")
People change, and should get some allowance if changing for the better. And it’s also good to separate from what was acceptable at the time to the current evolution. I was born in the early 60’s, and it was routine to insult each other or in general in high school by labeling something “gay” or calling someone a “fag”. It just was. Started evolving after maturing a bit in my 20’s and having gay acquaintances, friends and relatives (out of the closet). Fast forward to having openly lesbian (now gender fluid non-bianary) eldest kid in high school, and being an ally. Or to having a trans son who will have gender affirming surgery in June (so glad I’m on the left coast and not Florida). I’m an open ally at my global 100 company. It’s hard to recognize that 17 year old loud mouth high schooler calling people fags and homos, and in retrospect 99% sure made someone’s life more difficult. I would go back and change it if I could, but I can try to attone by helping not only my kids, and other kids, and colleagues. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/24 "2022-04-28T03:45:26Z")
I think of it as a burden-shifting analysis. Having said/done bigoted things in the past, the onus is now on you to prove you’ve changed, and perhaps atoned, depending on the severity of your past offense. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/25 "2022-04-29T20:03:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Let’s take John Doe. John Doe is a public figure with an image as inoffensive and good-natured. > > Yesterday, documentation from 10 years ago surfaced showing that John Doe had some truly terrible thoughts about minorities, women, and fur fanciers. Man, [you just confused the fuck out of me](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe_(musician)). Not John Doe! Not your fault of course, my mind just skittered sideways because I always think of the musician before the pseudonym and he does sorta have a reputation as being inoffensive and good-natured as old punk rockers go. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/26 "2022-05-02T13:02:25Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I can name one name, myself. Some of the things I thought and said when I was a young person in my 20’s and even into my 30’s were appalling Me too, though against gays (my sincere apologies Roderick) back in the '80s. I honestly don’t even know if I believed the vile crap I said but I can honestly say that ten years later I can absolutely say that I was not that person anymore. But what if I had become a political figure and earlier homophobic rants had surfaced? So I can definitely presume that others have reformed as well. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2022, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/27 "2022-05-02T23:10:52Z")
Elvis Costello and Eric Clapton are excellent examples. I’d defend Costello because he’s changed, and changed in a demonstrable, real way. Clapton was an extreme racist and has never really backed down from it. There are tons of people in my personal acquaintance - mostly older than me, but a few younger, esp when it comes to gay people - who have shifted opinions over the years and regret what they said when they were younger. They’re basically people who weren’t, and still aren’t, TBH, thinking that much beyond go to work, look after home and children, do hobby, sometimes because they’re just not curious about stuff, sometimes because all of that took up all of their energy. So they kinda respond to what’s going on around them. None of them ever advocated beating up non-white people or gays, as far as I know, or actually did it; that’s the sort of thing that is going to be hard to move on from. There is one guy I know who did advocate beating up non-whites and gays when he was young. He was a member of the National Front about thirty years ago. He had been in prison and, basically, got radicalised. He changed completely, and now occasionally goes to schools to talk about working against radicalisation. Some people I know don’t want to let him move forward, but he’s doing a lot to try to make up for his past and help other people not to get to that point to start with. We have to allow people the opportunity to change, as long as they really show it. The alternative is writing a hell of a lot of people off. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/28 "2022-05-03T06:15:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s okay to have held outdated ideas if you are older, as long as they are based on ignorance not hate. Even if they were based on hate, as long as the person has shown that they have actually changed and no longer hold those views, I think we shouldn’t hold it against them. Maybe be more vigilant to be sure it’s a genuine change of views and they’re not just saying what is currently advantageous, but people can learn to change even if they were hateful at one point. But as others have said, it’s kind of on them to actually show that change. If they haven’t done anything to indicate that they actually have changed since then, we have no reason to assume they have just because they haven’t said horrible things recently. They don’t necessarily have to have apologized for it (if nobody ever brought it up before, it’s understandable that they didn’t bring it up themselves), but through their action they should’ve shown change. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/29 "2022-05-04T00:04:11Z")
apparently not in today’s “cancel culture”, with no leeway for repentance or forgiveness ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/30 "2022-05-04T14:08:17Z")
Examples? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/31 "2022-05-04T14:44:14Z")
They all claim repentance and ask for forgiveness after they get caught. If they have repented it’s a little late to say so and the apologies sound hollow. However, I will point out there is a difference between celebrities and the average person here. A celebrity can publicly repent and apologize just once and there will be a record of it. If the average person made a mistake 20 years ago they don’t have to display their repentance and apologize to every person they meet in the future. Even for a celebrity we have to look at all their life over time to evaluate what kind of person it is. We shouldn’t judge people based on single mistake made in the past if they have lived a virtuous life since then. Words can be insincere, we can judge people better from the totality of their actions, including speech, over time, not just one poorly considered statement long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/32 "2022-05-04T15:05:26Z")
People make decisions today about other people based on things they did/said in the past _all the time_. The idea that some things are “off limits” or “don’t count” . . . well, that’s up to individuals to decide about, right? I mean, that’s how we know people . . . by collecting information and experiences over time. Like, say you called both me and someone else an asshole last year (yes, this example is very mild). For me, that might be water under the bridge at this point. For someone else, it might have really harmed the relationship. Each of us get to make that call. You don’t get to tell either of us how to respond to that. Not everybody deserves to be liked by everyone. If some people stop buying my art because of something I said or did, that’s their prerogative, just as it’s fine if other people don’t care and continue to be patrons. Neither side is “wrong” . . . they just evaluate things differently. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/33 "2022-05-04T15:23:30Z")
For some reason this screen is not letting me do the click-to-quote function but… Yes, it takes observing the sum total of what else has the person done since whatever point in the past. Also, it has to do with proportionality of influence — in the case of purely private citizen Joe Schmo, I am satisfied if there’s a record he has not made it a habit and has turned to “living right”. If he made an ignorant statement in 1990 I am not going to expect he must have spent every waking hour 1999-2022 being some sort of Captain Ally McAllyface in repentance. OTOH if this is big business heir Joe Schmo who made the statement as part of of a primary campaign for the state assembly… I may want abundant visible evidence of his course correction. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/34 "2022-05-04T15:38:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > part of the goal of condemning bigotry is to promote a society in which less (or no) people are bigots. If we refuse to accept genuine changes of heart and attempts to make right by bigots, we are not giving a great incentive for people to change their ways. I think this is really sensible and bears repeating. > [@TriPolar](#): > > They all claim repentance and ask for forgiveness after they get caught. If they have repented it’s a little late to say so and the apologies sound hollow. Is not _getting caught_ the legitimate turning point onto the road to reform for some people? I’m not saying that it’s especially plausible that they might have been ignorant that their behaviour was wrong, prior to being caught, but I do think that moment may (or sure, may not) be a wake-up call. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/35 "2022-05-04T15:43:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Is not _getting caught_ the legitimate turning point onto the road to reform for some people? I’m not saying that it’s especially plausible that they might have been ignorant that their behaviour was wrong, prior to being caught, but I do think that moment may (or sure, may not) be a wake-up call. Sure, _getting caught_ may be the turning point for somebody. It will take time to determine that. I don’t take anyone’s repentance claim as more credible than another without time to tell. Now sometimes the _offense_ is so out of character for a person we can also believe an apology and accept it as a mistake immediately. Again, the totality of a life is the way to determine this. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/36 "2022-05-04T20:01:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sure, _getting caught_ may be the turning point for somebody. It will take time to determine that. I don’t take anyone’s repentance claim as more credible than another without time to tell. Agreed. Actions speak louder than words. I was thinking about this the other day actually - about how we should view the acts of atonement that a reformed or apparently-reformed person might make - in one sense, they cannot purge past wrongs by doing explicitly good and right acts now, but at the same time, isn’t that what we would want and hope for them to do? I suppose it depends on what they believe they are doing, but that’s something only they know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/37 "2022-05-11T16:46:46Z")
Gina Carano was just announced today as a guest at a big upcoming comicon here in Toronto. She was bounced from her role on The Mandalorian due to transphobic, antivax, belief in phony voter fraud and anti-BLM statements and tweets. My FB feed, and the con’s announcement’s comments, are split between “bad idea/I’m not going now” and “woo-hoo!/stay home then, snowflakes.” I’m still going, but I’ll be curious how this plays out. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/38 "2022-05-16T11:53:50Z")
Apologies are easy-redemption is hard. Too many of these people who make phobic statements don’t understand this simple idea (or count on people’s short memory to coast by). ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/39 "2022-05-17T05:51:01Z")
If she really is anti-vax she won’t be appearing. You need to be vaccinated against Covid to be allowed into Canada. The convention is in August, though, so organizers may be hoping the requirements will be relaxed by then. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497/40 "2022-05-26T03:34:43Z")
The Liberal Party in Ontario has dropped a candidate for using a homophobic slur on social media when he was 15. He’s now 23. He made some interesting comments after being dropped: > [@](#): > > In a statement on his current Facebook page, Mazurek said the comments “were unacceptable then and unacceptable now, and are not reflective of the values that I hold and champion today,” > > "All Ontarians deserve to have a safe community around them, and comments like those make it more difficult to earn that trust. I apologize unequivocally for any harms that they have caused and I will continue to learn from previous mistakes. > > … > In saying the comments in question are nearly a decade old, he added: "To put it into context, I was just starting high school. This is not an excuse to minimize the reason that this is an issue, but **I would also like to make clear that we’re holding a child to the same standards as the adult writing this statement today."** The bolded statement strikes me as a fair statement for him to make, assuming the first two paragraphs are an accurate summary of his current views. > **[Ontario Liberals drop another candidate, this time over homophobic comments...](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6450525)** > > For the third time within a week, the Ontario Liberal Party has removed an election candidate. On Thursday, Alec Mazurek was dropped from running in Chatham-Kent-Leamington over comments he says he made on social media when he was 15. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-from-past-homophobic-or-racist-statements/963497.md?page=3)