# Judging people with unfortunate tattoo choices? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502 "2018-06-21T13:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/81 "2018-06-27T18:57:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If I ever get one, my back is about the only surface flat enough that something so large will look decent. I’m not sure that you’ve considered the wrinkling issue. If I get a large tattoo, I will put it on by belly. When I get old and wrinkly, I can acquire a pot belly large enough to keep the canvas taught. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/82 "2018-06-27T19:20:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > When I get old and wrinkly, I can acquire a pot belly large enough to keep the canvas taught. And just what will you teach the canvas that is your belly? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/83 "2018-06-27T19:36:50Z")
Incidentally, I just love this objection to tattoos: “Hey, when you’re old and wrinkly, that tattoo will look like crap!” Dude, when you’re old and wrinkly and sitting in the nursing home, you’re going to look like crap because you’re old and wrinkly, not because you’ve got a sagging tattoo. I’m sure the nursing home staff is going to wrinkle their noses in disgust, and all because of that blotch of ink you got 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/84 "2018-06-27T20:07:04Z")
I think it’s also notable that what some hypothetically maximally enlightened person thinks about the gun tattoo on the forehead is probably not the same thing that the person WITH the tattoo thinks about it. For example, if I had been seeking to join his group of friends and I had a rainbow flag tattooed on MY forehead, would the response have been an even-handed “Oh well, it’s just a tattoo.”? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/85 "2018-06-27T20:48:37Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > And just what will you teach the canvas that is your belly? 😃 That an elderly person’s life is fraut with difficulty? That one should age gracefully, like a fine whine? To rage, rage against the dyeing of the light? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/86 "2018-06-28T01:00:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That an elderly person’s life is fraut with difficulty? > That one should age gracefully, like a fine whine? > To rage, rage against the dyeing of the light? Would it over-complicating things to get myself tattooed with a reasonable definition of “irony” but that contains several misspellings? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/87 "2018-06-28T11:20:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > …And yeah, maybe he got this face tattoo 15 years ago, **and now he’s found Jesus or whatever.** … This has me wondering: could a clever tattoo artist turn the gun into a cross? That might open up some more employment opportunities for him (e.g., barista at a Starbucks in rural West Virginia.) He’d have a very interesting story of how it got there. And if he changes his mind again, he could always go full Manson and have the cross turned into a swastika. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/88 "2018-06-28T11:59:49Z")
I’m all for tattoos but I’d have a problem with a gun in the middle of his forehead. I would have to use it to gauge the type of person he is, not only his attitude towards guns, violence and how he chooses to be viewed by others but his social intelligence, his self-image, his decision making skills, long-term vision, etc… These are all qualities he may be lacking … and it’s written (drawn) right on his face. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/89 "2018-06-28T12:34:14Z")
Apparently some nasty judgmental people on a jury will conclude that a defendant with tears tattooed on his face\* is gang-affiliated or is proud of having murdered someone, so it’s now a thing to have a makeup artist (or at least makeup) provided at taxpayer expense [so no one](http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-grants-defendants-request-to-cover-facial-tattoos-during-murder-trial/2171312) will be [unfairly prejudiced against you](https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/defendant-marks-up-downfall-to-gang-tattoos/article_d4726825-49af-51db-99e5-7e3afae273cb.html). \*I didn’t know this before looking it up, but only having an _outline_ of tears tattooed on your face is supposed to mean you _attempted_ murder. It’s not honorable to claim murder unless you actually did it, and could cause resentment among your fellow prison inmates. \*\*By the way, people often manifest with saggy tattoos in middle age, so they get to carry around unattractive ink for decades. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/90 "2018-06-28T13:11:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not sure that you’ve considered the wrinkling issue. If I get a large tattoo, I will put it on by belly. When I get old and wrinkly, I can acquire a pot belly large enough to keep the canvas taught. I have. I know which areas remained less wrinkly in my closest ancestors. The belly isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/91 "2018-06-28T15:18:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Incidentally, I just love this objection to tattoos: “Hey, when you’re old and wrinkly, that tattoo will look like crap!” > > Dude, when you’re old and wrinkly and sitting in the nursing home, you’re going to look like crap because you’re old and wrinkly, not because you’ve got a sagging tattoo. I’m sure the nursing home staff is going to wrinkle their noses in disgust, and all because of that blotch of ink you got 50 years ago. I don’t really agree. I know some beautiful old and wrinkly people. I saw a gentleman like this yesterday at the doctors office - probably a Korean War Vet - looked the type - with something that was once a tattoo on his bicep - which was now just a red splotch (and yes, ink has gotten better and we expect tats will age better). The tattoo did look like crap. But he didn’t. Now, given what I suspect, the tattoo communicated something to me about him that was probably really important - and it that way really added to his visual story. But I don’t think modern tattoos will be capable of telling the same sort of story. The flowers across your lower back when you are 80 that have perhaps turned mooshy with age (the inks age and your skins age) don’t say “I served” in the same way this man’s did. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/92 "2018-06-28T21:42:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I have. I know which areas remained less wrinkly in my closest ancestors. The belly isn’t one. One reason I decided against getting a map of Iraq tattooed on my arm is that I don’t want it to look like a map of Chile in a few decades. ---
**Author:** ![I\_can\_t\_think\_of\_a\_name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@I\_can\_t\_think\_of\_a\_name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_can_t_think_of_a_name)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/93 "2018-06-28T23:06:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Apparently some nasty judgmental people on a jury will conclude that a defendant with tears tattooed on his face\* is gang-affiliated or is proud of having murdered someone, so it’s now a thing to have a makeup artist (or at least makeup) provided at taxpayer expense [so no one](http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-grants-defendants-request-to-cover-facial-tattoos-during-murder-trial/2171312) will be [unfairly prejudiced against you](https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/defendant-marks-up-downfall-to-gang-tattoos/article_d4726825-49af-51db-99e5-7e3afae273cb.html). > > \*I didn’t know this before looking it up, but only having an _outline_ of tears tattooed on your face is supposed to mean you _attempted_ murder. It’s not honorable to claim murder unless you actually did it, and could cause resentment among your fellow prison inmates. > \*\*By the way, people often manifest with saggy tattoos in middle age, so they get to carry around unattractive ink for decades. ☹ I can see the point of that. If part of the criminal justice system is that a case should be judged on the evidence for that specific case only, the jury isn’t supposed to judge the current case on evidence of other cases. So the defendant confessing to a murder should only be known to the jury if it’s a confession for the murder that particular trial is about, if the idea is that a case should be judged on the evidence for that specific case only. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/94 "2018-07-02T07:04:34Z")
I recently learned that the courtroom gesture of placing one hand on the Bible while holding the other palm-out towards the judge hearkens back to a time when criminals would have their crimes branded onto their palms. So, maybe an A for adultery, a B for burglary, etc. Holding up one’s palm in court was a way of displaying a rap sheet. Well, one isn’t supposed to do that to one’s own face, right? Still, if the guy could otherwise prove to be trustworthy, I’d hire him as a bartender or, really, whatever seemed appropriate. I would not hire the guy with swastika face tattoos to be a tour guide at the holocaust museum. We’ve never had a president with face tattoos… this is an avoidable problem, and I am more easygoing than most. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/95 "2018-07-02T16:20:50Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I recently learned that the courtroom gesture of placing one hand on the Bible while holding the other palm-out towards the judge hearkens back to a time when criminals would have their crimes branded onto their palms. So, maybe an A for adultery, a B for burglary, etc. Holding up one’s palm in court was a way of displaying a rap sheet With respect, this \*sounds \*super FOAFy. Linkity-link? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/96 "2018-07-02T18:01:32Z")
Someone who has a tattoo, **on his face** , advocating criminal violence, should not expect any job anywhere. I wouldn’t hire him as a factory worker, garbage collector, anything, unless he agreed to have it completely removed before starting work. If it has no meaning to him, then even better for him that it be removed, because it sure as hell does have a meaning to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/97 "2018-07-02T19:21:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > With respect, this \*sounds \*super FOAFy. Linkity-link? I learned about this on one of those guided history tours, so it Is kind of hearsay. But I found some corroboration- I guess we can trust those guys after all. From [here](http://history.org/Foundation/journal/spring03/branks.cfm): > [@](#): > > Often the pillory was just part of a package of punishments. On April 23, 1771, the Essex Gazette of Newport, Rhode Island, reported that “William Carlisle was convicted of passing Counterfeit Dollars, and sentenced to stand One Hour in the Pillory on Little-Rest Hill . . . to have both ears cropped, to be branded on both cheeks with the Letter R (for Rogue), and to pay a fine of One Hundred Dollars and Cost of Prosecution.” > [@](#): > > Burglary was punished in all the colonies by branding with a capital B in the right hand for the first offense, in the left hand for the second, “and if either be committed on the Lord’s Daye his Brand shall bee sett on his Forehead as a mark of infamy.” In Maryland, every county was ordered to have branding irons, with the lettering specifically prescribed: SL stood for seditious libel and could be burned on either cheek. M stood for manslaughter, T for thief, R for rogue or vagabond, F for forgery. In Maryland and Virginia a hog stealer was pilloried and had his ears cropped. For a second offense he paid treble damages and was burned with the letter H on his forehead. Double punishment if the hog stealer was a slave. The third offense brought death. As for the courtroom claim, [this](https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#branding) is the best I could find: > [@](#): > > Convicts who successfully pleaded benefit of clergy, and those found guilty of manslaughter instead of murder, were branded on the thumb (with a “T” for theft, “F” for felon, or “M” for murder), so that they would be unable to receive this benefit more than once. The branding took place in the courtroom at the end of the sessions in front of spectators. It is alleged that sometimes criminals convicted of petty theft, or who were able to bribe the executioner, had the branding iron applied when it was cold. > > For a short time, between 1699 and January 1707, convicted thieves were branded on the cheek in order to increase the deterrent effect of the punishment, but this rendered convicts unemployable and in 1707 the practice reverted to branding on the thumb. Not a slam-dunk of a cite, but the branding was taking place in court, where presumably previous brands would be noted… ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/98 "2018-08-03T04:56:07Z")
Bumping this to note [the (self) passing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Genest#Death) of probably the most famous and successful face tattoo guy. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/99 "2018-08-03T05:16:33Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Bumping this to note [the (self) passing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Genest#Death) of probably the most famous and successful face tattoo guy. Thread derailment: He had to wait SIX MONTHS to have a brain tumor removed?!?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502/100 "2018-08-05T21:31:50Z")
I had a student a few years ago with a large swastika on her neck (oddly, not the first). She was 18 or 19, so unless she was tattooed as a minor child against her will, the symbol shows a fairly recent like of ideas/culture a swastika represents. She was an okay, quiet student who wrote bland papers, but I was uncomfortable with her. Her ink was a big Fuck You to gay me, her peers of color/religion, my Jewish wife (whose grandma was murdered in Auschwitz), and basically any moral human being. Maybe she was unaware of the many meanings a swastika has; perhaps she has a boyfriend in a white power band and the tatt was a young love mistake. However, humans make snap judgements about others (is this a friend or foe?) and a swastika, for a vast majority of people, is a “Danger: Keep Away!” warning label. To a lesser but still significant extent, a gun tatt on the forehead is a warning label. Maybe he was just a young wannabe thug and has never even held a gun – but once he used his face as a billboard for a symbol of violence, he lost control of its meaning for others. On hiring: I’d check gun guy’s criminal history and hire him for non-customer facing positions if his record was okay. Swastika girl: not in a billion years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-people-with-unfortunate-tattoo-choices/816502.md?page=6)