# Judging state flags **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094 "2015-07-02T23:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/41 "2015-07-04T14:41:49Z")
> [@camille](#): > > And I agree that state seals don’t work on flags, but you could probably get inspiration from some of the elements in the seals to redesign a better flag. As I mentioned in my OP, things like bears or beavers or sunflowers are perfectly good symbols. You just have to render them simply and clearly with no detail. > [@](#): > > But I’m still not completely sold on “no words or letters allowed”, cheesy as it might be. Can we really come up with 50 distinctive designs _and_ color combos to avoid confusing one state with another? Yes we can. The human mind can easily recognize hundred and hundreds of simple patterns and symbols. Remember the effective size of a flag flying in a pole is one square inch on a piece of paper in front of you. And moving and flapping. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/42 "2015-07-04T14:42:51Z")
I’m not sure I would argue that DC’s flag is distinctive, at least not in the same way as New Mexico’s. DC’s flag could be the flag of any polity, but New Mexico’s couldn’t be anyone else’s. It’s still pretty good on the other points, though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/43 "2015-07-04T14:44:24Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > With all the talk about state flags, talk about redesign is making the rounds again here in Minnesota, which currently has the state seal on a blue banner. SO - what do you think about this proposed [redesign](http://mnflag.tripod.com/) It’s a good design. I don’t find it attractive but it works. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/44 "2015-07-04T14:49:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And as an Ohioan, I sort of have mixed feelings about our flag: I like that it’s unique, and it’s certainly far better than all of those seal-on-a-blue-bedsheet flags, but there’s nothing about it that really says “Ohio” (unless the big circle is an O, which violates the no-writing rule), and it’s too complicated to draw easily. I agree, as a fellow Ohioan, I think our flag is trying to hard. It wouldn’t be as bad if it were actually flag shape. As is, it takes 2 people and 17 steps just to fold it: > [@](#): > > The general assembly hereby establishes a recommended procedure for the folding of the state flag by two people. The procedure is as follows: > > With the flag unfolded, fold the flag in half lengthwise so that the points of the flag are aligned. Fold the flag in half lengthwise a second time to form a long strip with the red disc facing the ground. Next, fold the pointed end back onto itself to form a rectangle. These steps entail three folds. > > Starting on the end formed by the fold of the pointed end back onto itself, fold two inches of the flag onto itself for a flag with a three-foot hoist and a five-foot fly, or another appropriate width of fold for a flag of a different size. Repeat the folds a total of fourteen times, alternating the folds in a fan-like manner. > > The result is a total of seventeen folds symbolizing that Ohio was the seventeenth state admitted to the Union. Finally, neatly and snugly wrap the remaining length of flag around the fan-folds to form a compact rectangle. Also on the subject of Hateable Flags: Our Governors shouldn’t get their own flags. It’s so incredibly embarrassing. They don’t deserve their own personal flags. They’re just citizens, just like the rest of us! > **[Flags of governors of the U.S. states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_governors_of_the_U.S._states)** > > Sixteen U.S. states have personal flags (properly called standards) for their governors, as does the commonwealth of Puerto Rico. These flags are analogous to the standards of the president and vice president of the United States. Most of their designs are based upon either the state flag or state seal/coat of arms. > Flag of the governor of Alabama Flag of the governor of Alabama before 1939 Flag of the governor of California ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/45 "2015-07-04T15:01:32Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > In 2001, the North American Vexillogical Association did a survey of the US state and territorial and the Canadian provincial and territorial flags, and New Mexico won. Georgia came in last. > > warning: PDF > [http://nava.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NAVANews\_2001\_vol34no2.pdf](http://nava.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NAVANews_2001_vol34no2.pdf) As a voter in that poll I was quite happy with the lineup of the top 10. And to be fair, that was Georgia’s short-lived “placemat” flag that got the thumbs down (was that ever a mistake) Myself I tend to bend the guidelines when it comes to arms/seals just as long as they are straightforward and easily recognizable. Which the state seals in most those blue-bedsheet flags are not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/46 "2015-07-04T15:12:16Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > So any state flag with a saltire on it is _verboten_? No, I’m saying that Florida and Alabama’s saltires which were adopted intentionally with reference to the Confederacy, should be scrapped. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/47 "2015-07-04T15:16:23Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Also on the subject of Hateable Flags: Our Governors shouldn’t get their own flags. It’s so incredibly embarrassing. They don’t deserve their own personal flags. They’re just citizens, just like the rest of us! > [Flags of governors of the U.S. states - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_governors_of_the_U.S._states) I believe that no official of any democratic government should have any personal symbols of any kind, so I would get rid of our presidential flag, seal, and “Hail to the Chief” too. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/48 "2015-07-04T15:19:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m not sure I would argue that DC’s flag is distinctive, at least not in the same way as New Mexico’s. DC’s flag could be the flag of any polity, but New Mexico’s couldn’t be anyone else’s. It’s still pretty good on the other points, though. I think this pretty much accords with what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/49 "2015-07-04T15:20:50Z")
Did I forget to say I’m an Ohioan? I think it’s a good flag. I think the unusual shape is a plus, not s negative. As I said, the only improvement I would make is to ditch the stars. They’re just clutter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/50 "2015-07-04T15:24:07Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The California flag has the further oddity of saying, not just “California”, but “California Republic”. The flag goes back to the days before California was a state. For a very brief time (like three weeks), a group of Americans in northern California seceded from Mexico and declared itself an independent Republic, and the flag is from that time. [Wikipedia: California Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic) Yeah, “republic” as an official term for a subnational entity is very Soviet. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/51 "2015-07-04T21:29:13Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Come on. Virginia has violence _and_ bare nipples! Virginia FTW! Plus, the victor is holding a large bong! or is that a giant dildo? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/52 "2015-07-05T00:19:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, I’m saying that Florida and Alabama’s saltires which were adopted intentionally with reference to the Confederacy, should be scrapped. Florida sez it was in reference to the Spanish Empire. > **[Flag of Florida](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Florida)** > > The flag of Florida consists of a red saltire on a white background, with the state seal superimposed on the center. The flag's current design has been in use since May 21, 1985, after the design of the Florida state seal was graphically improved and officially sanctioned for use by state officials. > In 2001, a survey conducted by the North American Vexillological Association ranked Florida's state flag 34th in design quality of the 72 Canadian provincial, U.S. state and U.S. territorial fla... ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/53 "2015-07-05T00:36:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, I’m saying that Florida and Alabama’s saltires which were adopted intentionally with reference to the Confederacy, should be scrapped. Wikipedia says otherwise - the Florida saltire refers to the Spanish Burgundian saltire. The governor who added it thought that the previous flag - the state seal on a white field - looked like a flag of surrender when hanging limp. Alabama’s was actually inspired by flag carried by an Alabama regiment in the Civil War. Okay, that _is_ Confederate-inspired, but how many people know that? I’ve certainly never associated either flag with the Confederacy before. Given that the Alabama and Florida flags fulfills your other aesthetic of being a simple, easy-to-recognize design, I’d give them a pass. ETA: Ninja’d by **DrDeth**! Dammit. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/54 "2015-07-05T01:23:10Z")
I lived in Michigan for 11 years, and I still had no idea what the state flag looked like. If pressed, I would have said “block yellow M on a blue background?” Maybe it had something to do with the fact that I lived in Ann Arbor. 😉 It didn’t take me nearly that long to learn the Washington state flag when I moved here. I do like the green background - appropriate for the Evergreen State. If I were to redesign it, maybe copy Washington’s coat of arms from the D.C. flag, but make it white on green? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/55 "2015-07-05T15:14:50Z")
I am afraid my PA flag sucks, just the state seal on a blue field. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/56 "2015-07-05T15:29:03Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I lived in Michigan for 11 years, and I still had no idea what the state flag looked like. If pressed, I would have said “block yellow M on a blue background?” Maybe it had something to do with the fact that I lived in Ann Arbor. 😉 > > It didn’t take me nearly that long to learn the Washington state flag when I moved here. I do like the green background - appropriate for the Evergreen State. If I were to redesign it, maybe copy Washington’s coat of arms from the D.C. flag, but make it white on green? I’m thinking you could still go with Washington’s bust, maybe in silhouette form? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/57 "2015-07-05T21:30:22Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I guess [Oregon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Oregon.svg) could go with the [reverse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Oregon_(reverse).svg) of their flag, but they’d never live it down: “You said _beaver_–huh, huh, huh!” It still might be better than what they’ve got now, though. I rather like Oregon’s flag. And it is unique, being the only state flag with different designs on the opposite sides. > **[Flag of Oregon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Oregon)** > > The flag of Oregon is a two-sided flag in navy blue and gold with an optional gold fringe. On the front is the escutcheon from the state seal and on the reverse is a gold figure of a beaver, the state animal. Oregon is the only U.S. State to feature different designs on both sides of its flag (the flag of Massachusetts was changed in 1971 to be single-sided). > The current flag of Oregon became official on February 26, 1925. What is believed to be the first flag of Oregon produced was made that ... I also like the unique pennant style of Ohio’s flag. [Flag of Ohio - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ohio) Back when President Obama was running for his first term I thought it was hilarious to see a comment in an online article about him. It showed Obama at a rally/appearance in Ohio. One ignorant comment maker was frothing at the mouth about how he had desecrated the US flag, changing it into an emblem to promote his candidacy. They didn’t stop to learn that what they were talking about was the Ohio flag. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/58 "2015-07-05T21:50:52Z")
Oregon could keep their two-sided flag: Move the beaver to the front, and put a donkey on the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/59 "2015-07-06T02:40:26Z")
I love flags! > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > So any state flag with a saltire on it is _verboten_? Pish and likewise tush. Florida’s saltire references not only the Confederate battle flag, but also [Spanish](http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/7699665/6/stock-photo-7699665-burgundian-saltire-flag-castillo-de-san-marcos-landscape.jpg) and [British](http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CRW4WX/a-british-flag-like-the-one-that-flew-over-virginias-capital-city-CRW4WX.jpg) flags that once flew over the state. Actually, this is what bothers me about all the knee-jerk reactions to “confederate symbolism in state flags!” Everyone thinks they see something that may or may not be there. Florida is a perfect example. That flag has its roots in the Spanish Empire in North America. Yes, it has a red cross, but that is more a coincidence than a backdoor way to salute the confederacy. The CSA never had a red cross anyway. The most popular confederate flag, as has been discussed ad nauseum over the past 2 weeks, was the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. And THAT flag was a square, with a blue St. Andrew’s cross. This is the flag which has been incorporated into Mississippi’s flag. If people want to complain about Mississippi’s flag, fine… But Florida and Alabama? Florida’s flag was basically a red cross on a white field in 1513. So no, I don’t like the idea of getting rid of all state flags that have a much deeper history than the CSA. The Saint Andrew’s Cross is incorporated in many flags, including the UK’s. Likewise, any state that was part of the Confederacy that had red white and blue as part of their colors (with some white stars tossed in) should not have to give up their flag just because it “reminds” someone of the CSA flag. Hell, Tennessee’s flag has red, white, and blue, and a few white stars. Does THAT one have to go, also? As for me, I HATE any flag that has the name of the state. Idaho is particularly bad, with the name on the flag twice, and probably only inches away from each other. It’s bizarre. Flush most of the original 13 colonies, and any flag that has a state seal. I have always liked the SC FLAG, but the flag in the link shows a palmetto tree much more detailed than I’ve ever seen before. Don’t like that one. And why does SC get a pass? That flag flies over the first state to leave the union. Their flag was adopted on Jan 28, 1861… That is right BEFORE they fired on Ft. Sumter. I agree with whoever said Wyoming was close… But that seal ruins it. I also like New Mexico’s design, but I am not a big fan of those colors. My favorite state flag is Texas. That is one classic design, and incorporates the red, white and blue very nicely. And I don’t think of the confederacy when I see it. I think Texas. Adopted in 1839, its roots are established long before the confederate battle flag was even thought about. So they get to keep theirs (IMO). I wonder… Would anyone have an objection to a southern state, like Mississippi adopting the Bonnie Blue flag (an all blue flag with a single white star in the center)? That is a beautiful, simple flag, and was an unofficial flag of the confederacy. What about if a northern state, like Pennsylvania adopted the blue flag with a single white star? That would be great! Ditch those mirrored horses! I like simple, clean design elements for flags, and the Bonnie Blue Flag would be a great design change. Just use a slightly different shade of blue, and we have a winner! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094/60 "2015-07-06T02:41:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, what are we trying to do—keep a design based on the Confederate flag but changing it just enough to hide that fact? > > If this design were used in any other concept, I wouldn’t have a problem. Given the history, though, I’d prefer they scrap it and start from scratch. No, the idea is to preserve what is a good design, while removing what makes it connected to the Confederacy. You know, a deliberate attempt to remove the negative symbolism. Characterizing it as trying to “hide the connection” is showing extreme bad faith, and would be fairly characterized as looking to be offended. The only purpose it to make it where no one who sees the flag would think it honors the Confederacy. If you admit it would be okay otherwise, then it’s okay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-state-flags/724094.md?page=4)