# Judging vs Condoning vs Interpretation....Another Christian Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470 "2002-11-29T07:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/241 "2003-01-06T02:58:41Z")
Poly: Have you ever read Sunday: a Minister’s Story by Dr. John Harper? I knew him for years and that book of his is one of my favourites. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/242 "2003-01-06T13:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*. > To be entirely fair to **His** , she simply responded to a request for opinions issued by, IIRC, **gobear** , on the specific topic of homosexuality. Apropos this question, we gave our friend Rich a ride to work on Friday, and he noted that the man who won the Florida lottery had put $100,000 of his winnings into a cashier’s check he attempted to give to the Salvation Army – who rejected it as “tainted money” won from gambling. I suspect I know **His** ’s stance on that issue too – but she hasn’t been asked about that. She **was** asked about gay sex, and responded. > \*\* Thanks for the above observation, **Polycarp**. I’d just like to say in response to some of the posts, that no I don’t just concentrate on the particular sin (my belief) of homosexuality. It just seems to be a big topic on this board at times so I join in like everyone else and give my beliefs on it. I’ve seen several gay threads that I’ve never entered into. As to the way I present my views, well, working on finding that fine line will probably be an ongoing process and I’m probably never going to please everyone with what I say. I think about the right words to express caring for people and at the same time not compromise what I believe to be true. That’s very hard to do sometimes. I’ll never be perfect at it. Just trying to be true to the Lord and what I believe He say, that’s all. May everyone have a great day. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/243 "2003-01-06T13:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Then homosexuals aren’t either? \*\* I’m afraid in my view anyway, there’s quite a bit of difference between marriage and homosexuality. They’re not married nor can they be because marriage is a union between a man and a woman. So, **vanilla** , it’s **my opinion** that as long as they are having sexual intimacy with same sex, yes they’re doing wrong. I’m not meaning this to sound harsh or anything, just trying to explain an opinion. I see a difference between a God ordained marriage between a man and woman a whole different thing than homosexuality. I’m sure most here won’t agree with that distinction. God made sex for the marriage bed only and they aren’t married and even if man granted them that right I don’t really see how it could be valid in God’s eyes since **in my belief** He has comdemned sex with the same gender. Don’t ask me what the answer is, they’ll have to read the Bible and come to their own conclusions. If their conclusions turn out to be wrong, then that’s something they’ll have to deal with. Please don’t take all this as judgement on individual people. I’m just trying to answer **vanilla’s** question. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/244 "2003-01-06T13:55:09Z")
**His4Ever** , I know things have gotten lost in the last few posts, but I really would appreciate it if you would address the issues I brought up yesterday afternoon about who you think has the right to pass judgement on you. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/245 "2003-01-06T14:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Thanks for the above observation, **Polycarp**. I’d just like to say in response to some of the posts, that no I don’t just concentrate on the particular sin (my belief) of homosexuality. It just seems to be a big topic on this board at times so I join in like everyone else and give my beliefs on it. I’ve seen several gay threads that I’ve never entered into. > > As to the way I present my views, well, working on finding that fine line will probably be an ongoing process and I’m probably never going to please everyone with what I say. I think about the right words to express caring for people and at the same time not compromise what I believe to be true. That’s very hard to do sometimes. I’ll never be perfect at it. Just trying to be true to the Lord and what I believe He say, that’s all. > > May everyone have a great day. \*\* My apologizes for implying that you were concentrated on it. What something seems like to me, isn’t necessarily so. While I disagree with you, you have every right to your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/246 "2003-01-06T15:32:52Z")
H4E: So you’re also saying that those who enter into marriages only conducted by civil officials and without any church ceremonies are also violating the commandment? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/247 "2003-01-06T15:34:56Z")
No, I _think_ she feels that God approves of marriages only between opposite sexes, no matter how they were officiated. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/248 "2003-01-06T15:35:16Z")
& now that I just asked you that question, I realized something else that you implied with your statements above. Essentially, if you don’t think a particular group’s deity is really God (such as your opinion on the LDS) then you also feel that the marriage ceremonies conducted by them are not a “God ordained _[sic]_ marriage.” ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/249 "2003-01-06T15:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > \*\ ***His4Ever** , I know things have gotten lost in the last few posts, but I really would appreciate it if you would address the issues I brought up yesterday afternoon about who you think has the right to pass judgement on you. > > CJ \*\* Hmm, I’ll try but don’t know how good I’ll do. I would think that God of course has the right to pass judgement on me. Also, I think that fellow Christian and my pastor would have the right to take me aside and speak to me if they considered me to be doing something wrong. Now they wouldn’t be judging me personally as only God can do that, but they’d be judging what I did or am doing. Then, I suppose I’d have to decide what to do about their concerns or whether I agree with them or not, as we all do. **Meatros** , thanks for the comment. I hope we can leave this subject for awhile and go on to something else tho it seems it usually comes up again sooner or later. Of course, we’re not going to agree with each other on every subject, we shouldn’t expect to I would think. Gotta get back to work. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/250 "2003-01-06T15:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Scotticher (and anyone else who’s interested): I’m given to understand that we’re not to judge even our brethren in Christ unless we’re the duly constituted church court for such an action. Where am I wrong on that? **Monty** , I think we’re all working from slightly differing meanings of the word “judgment.” Only God (or perhaps the Church in some demoninations’ eyes) can judge another person in the sense of sit in judgment for condemnation or acquittal. For once, I can agree with **His** in the sense that it’s the responsibility of every Christian to judge the acts of other Christians with an eye to assisting in love their brothers and sisters in Christ. But that’s quite a different meaning – it’s me offering help to you or **His** or **Scotti** or **CJ** or the reverse, with one of you offering help to me – though “judgment” in the sense that evaluation of behavior is concerned, it’s done in loving support and not in Pharisaical “judgmentalism.” (Though **Chaim** or **Zev** is apt to drop in long enough to point out that ideal Pharisee behavior, as opposed to that of the hypocritical Pharisees of the Gospels, is supposed to be doing exactly the same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/251 "2003-01-06T16:02:54Z")
Poly: What you do is exactly as you described above. You assist your brethren. I believe you can readily see the difference between that and what H4E has been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/252 "2003-01-06T16:07:33Z")
Concurred, **Monty** – with the proviso that _appearances matter_. **His** , I think, conceived of herself as “bringing the Truth of God’s Word to the Dopers” and hence did not lay the groundwork of establishing personal relationships so that they knew her as a friend, and hence got shot down when she spoke of what she saw as Scriptural condemnation of sins. Major oops factor there! But on getting to know her a little better, I do see the good intentions behind what she thought she was doing – and they were doing the usual paving job. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mithrilhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mithrilhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithrilhawk)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/253 "2003-01-06T16:20:19Z")
Ah, I had a good weekend away from this thread and watching football. How about y’all? Let me make a few points and retire from the thread: 1. I haven’t seen much in the way of a resolution on the question of whether one may be considered tolerant of homosexuality by homosexuals without first endorsing homosexual sex. Some, but I think only one person was willing to admit the “you must endorse my sex or you hate me” is at the least a wholly emotional position. (Is it understandable? Probably, but I think it’s emotionally harmful to base a worldview on such a position and that’s a whole 'nother ball of wax to debate.) 2. IMHO, one looks for support of positions they already have. Will anyone, via rhetoric on a message board, convince myself or His4Ever that we must endorse homosexuality? Will we, in turn, convince Backwards or Esprix that homosexual sex is a sin? No. Sooner or later, it will devolve to a duel of quoting source material and, as all evidence indicates, both sides can produce their experts. So why do we bother posting? Hmmm… a new thread? Let’s psycho analyze ourselves. Maybe it is that, because once upon a time we were still forming our opinion on a given subject, we hope to influence those who are now in that process. Maybe we enjoy the mental jousting. Maybe we have a need to prove ourselves correct. In any event, it is not to be called names or ridiculed. I try to avoid doing so and greatly appreciate others who hold the same opinion. Feel free to call me on it if I ever get shrill. 3. For those out there who may still be forming an opinion, read your source materials, keep in mind the biases of the sources, and give the Bible a fair shake. As I told a friend of mine, to study the Bible, you should read it, not just books about it. 4. Because I believe that out of love Jesus died for me, taking my sins on himself, even though I don’t deserve it, it’s the least I could do to love other people, whether they seem _to me_ to be in violation of God’s commandments. Whether some are willing to believe it or not, I love them and want the best for them, even if they hate me because of it. Peace… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/254 "2003-01-06T20:28:25Z")
Poly: Perhaps. But the whole hypocrisy thing kind of gets in the way of it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/255 "2003-01-06T20:30:54Z")
Note to all: I am not, in any shape, fashion, or form, calling Poly a hypocrite. He is the epitome of the opposite of such a person. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/256 "2003-01-06T20:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*& now that I just asked you that question, I realized something else that you implied with your statements above. > > Essentially, if you don’t think a particular group’s deity is really God (such as your opinion on the LDS) then you also feel that the marriage ceremonies conducted by them are not a “God ordained _[sic]_ marriage.” \*\* I’m not sure how God would view that. I could only give an opinion and I’m not even sure what that is right now. We’d have to get into a debate on Christianity, religions, and cults and all that and I don’t really want to do that right now. I would agree with what **vanilla** said about marriages being between male and female no matter how they’re officiated. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/257 "2003-01-06T21:10:42Z")
What Tris said. In the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/258 "2003-01-06T22:15:06Z")
And once again gays are left with three choices: [list=1][li]Celibacy[/li][li]Use someone of the opposite gender as a sex object[/li][li]Lie[/list=1][/li] How sad. ☹ Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/259 "2003-01-06T22:17:31Z")
Oh, don’t be sad, Esprix. His4ever isn’t God. Moral choices are not hers to give. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/260 "2003-01-06T23:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > I’m not sure how God would view that. Ask Him, then. > [@](#): > > I could only give an opinion and I’m not even sure what that is right now. So far that hasn’t stopped you on a great many other issues. > [@](#): > > We’d have to get into a debate on Christianity, religions, and cults and all that and I don’t really want to do that right now. Possibly because you just can’t grasp the idea that if a particular religion isn’t your particular religion, it’s not a cult. > [@](#): > > I would agree with what **vanilla** said about marriages being between male and female no matter how they’re officiated. I was asking you about the officating. If it’s officiated by someone you don’t consider to be doing “God’s officating” (such as a civil servant or an LDS temple worker), then is that a “God-ordained marriage?” And if not, what’s the damage to you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470.md?page=14)