# Judging vs Condoning vs Interpretation....Another Christian Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470 "2002-11-29T07:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/121 "2003-01-03T20:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjrt \* > \*\*#1 said well Mom (all of these kids call me Mom) show me in the Bible where it says it is wrong. So I took him to the verses where it talked of homosexuality. \*\* Out of 39 Old Testament books and about 27 New Testament books, you were able to open it right up and show him where the pertinent info was, I’ll bet. It doesn’t talk about ‘homosexuality’ per se, at least I haven’t seen anything yet. I’ve found absolutely nothing that would indicate that a person being attracted to the same sex is a sin. Has anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/122 "2003-01-03T20:22:41Z")
**Mithrilhawk** , are you or are you not intolerant of homosexual sex? If that’s how you’re defining bigotry, then you’ve got your answer. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/123 "2003-01-03T20:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mithrilhawk \* > \*\*Well… > > I think the whole homosexual issue is THE hotbutton issue on acceptance, condoning, judging, etc., which is why it’s at least a little important to debate that. > > Nonetheless, > > we will agree to disagree on whether homosexuality is a sin, though I’d dearly like the space to make the case when i have the time. > > It remains an unfortunate fact, however, that many activists insist that others explicitly endorse their behavior or lifestyle. Absence of that endorsement is construed as hatred, bigotry, etc. (Did anyone notice the vitriol with which at least person responded to me?) How can there be any constructive dialogue when disagreement is met with scorn and name calling? > > I submit that it is not only non-gays, but gays, who need to work on accepting others with different points of view. > > Is that more to the point of the OP? \*\* Just wanted to let you know, **Mithrilhawk** , that you’re not alone in believing homosexuality is a sin and you said it well in this post about any disagreement with homosexuality being met with scorn and namecalling. I agree that gays need to work on accepting others with differing points of view. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/124 "2003-01-03T20:34:26Z")
Well, **Mithrilhawk** , one obvious distinction I’d make is in the issue of whether _it’s any of your business_ what somebody else does. To one extent, as a Christian, it _is_ my business – because I am supposed to love and respect every other human being as I would myself. The problem in that is that if I attempt to apply the standards by which I judge myself to them without some very obvious sign of caring and compassion being evident to them, they are going to see it as me sitting in judgment over them. “Tolerance” to me simply means, “By me you’re free to do what you want, and I won’t try to interfere with you living your life as you like unless you welcome my becoming a part of it – at which point I’ll be your friend, privileged to hold you when you cry, rejoice with you when you’re happy, encourage you when you’re afraid to try something, and guide you when you have a tough decision to make – and I’ll expect the same back from you.” You are in no way condoning or endorsing what Joe does that is not what you’d do, simply giving him the respect he deserves as another one of God’s children to follow his own moral judgments and do what he feels right for him. I once tried to make the distinction that is very clear to me between “tolerance” and “acceptance” – the first implying a judgment and the second not. But that’s a separate ball of wax. > [@](#): > > It remains an unfortunate fact, however, that many activists insist that others explicitly endorse their behavior or lifestyle. Uh, there’s a question implicit in this in _my_ mind at least. I have not seen any cases of any activists _listerally_ insisting on their opponents’ endorsement of their behavior or lifestyle. (Can we get rid of that last word? Please?) But this often is code for “if I agree that you have the same rights as I do, then I’m agreeing that what you _do_ with those rights is endorsing your behavior, which I don’t want to do.” As in, “if you want to live together, it’s no skin off my nose, but if you want a legally sanctioned marriage, that implies that the state approves of your behavior, and I don’t want them to do that.” Is the latter the sort of thing you really meant? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/125 "2003-01-03T20:36:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjrt \* > \*\*I’m new to this board and was reading this thread and the links therein. I do take it the whole problem came with the subject of homosexuality and when to judge and/or condone this. > > My teenage daughter has homosexual friends. They are very nice, when they feel the need to just be kids my house is the crash house for them to vent about their problems and to listen to their music without someone belittliing them. For namesake the homosexual friend I will #1. #1 ask me one night what I thought of his homsexuality. I said #1 I really like you alot, but I think you can find your own answer in the Bible. #1 said well Mom (all of these kids call me Mom) show me in the Bible where it says it is wrong. So I took him to the verses where it talked of homosexuality. He read them, and I honestly think that he had necer read them before, so he said Mom what do you think? I said #1 I can’t change what the Bible says, you have read just like I have read it before. He said Mom I can’t change, I’ll just have to accept what comes if I die. I said #1 that is your decision, only you can make that decision. #1 says Mom do you still love me? I said yes I still love you, I don’t approve of what you do but I love you. > I didn’t judge him in no way he came to his own conclusion. > I don’t condone what he does and he knows that and is acceptable of that fact. Maybe some people can just accept the truth better than others. \*\* I agree wholeheartedly with what you told this child. You could have told him or her nothing but the truth. To do otherwise would be unethical and wrong. I see it is true love in saying what you did. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/126 "2003-01-03T20:36:26Z")
**Homebrew** I saw the links you provided but I’m looking for a Scripture reference about one being attracted to the same sex, not how people or their various churches ‘feel’ about it. **His4Ever** , do you have one? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/127 "2003-01-03T20:36:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*It doesn’t talk about ‘homosexuality’ per se, at least I haven’t seen anything yet. I’ve found absolutely nothing that would indicate that a person being attracted to the same sex is a sin. Has anyone else? \*\* No. In fact, throughout much of church history, homosexuals were NOT regarded as having committed sins. The story of Soddom and Ghamorrah (sp?) was about hospitality and was later changed to homosexuality. When Christian missionaries came to asia, they changed one of the commandments to be against homosexuality just so they could have an argument against it. "“In AD 438…homosexual prostitution was still tolerated and taxed by the Christian emperors in all the cities of the empire.” “In the Judaeo-Christian tradition several same sex couples became archetypes in the queer cultural tradition, apparently from an early period, notably David and Jonathan, Jesus and John, or ‘the Beloved Disciple’, and Ruth and Naomi. Boswell (1995) has charted the early homoerotic traditions of paired saints such as Perpetua and Felicitas, a Christan noblewoman and her female slave, martyred for their beliefs; Polyeuct and Nearchos, Roman soldiers…” -The Myth of the Modern Homosexual. By Rictor Norton. There is a great book by John Boswell called “Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality” which explains why the church changed from having ceremonies for homosexual marriages to suddently declaring it a sin. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/128 "2003-01-03T20:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\ ***Homebrew** I saw the links you provided but I’m looking for a Scripture reference about one being attracted to the same sex, not how people or their various churches ‘feel’ about it. > > **His4Ever** , do you have one? \*\* I don’t know of any Scriptural references a out attraction to the same sex other than the ones that condemn homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/129 "2003-01-03T20:40:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mithrilhawk \* > \*\*Now Esprix’s post is more or less my feelings. He would have doubts about me, knowing I believe homosexuality is a sin, but as long as I don’t show hatred toward him, we could at least be nominal friends. Totally rational. > > The majority of backwards’ posts can be summed up as demanding that I endorse it wholeheartedly. They’re also full of hatred and intolerance. \*\* Get used to it, **Mithrilhawk**. I’ve been through this with these guys. They’re not going to accept anything you say that doesn’t endorse homosexuality. You have to get a thick skin around here.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/130 "2003-01-03T20:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t know of any Scriptural references a out attraction to the same sex other than the ones that condemn homosexuality. \*\* and even those (I think there are two total) are debated as for intent and translation. There are things far more sinful than homosexuality that many Christians do today without the blink of an eye. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/131 "2003-01-03T20:43:27Z")
_Homosexuality_ is the state of being attracted to others of the same sex. Please point out the appropriate chapters and verses that condemn it. ---
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/132 "2003-01-03T20:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mithrilhawk \* > \*\*Well… > > I think the whole homosexual issue is THE hotbutton issue on acceptance, condoning, judging, etc., which is why it’s at least a little important to debate that. \*\* I respectfully disagree with you. Because it isn’t a matter of what you believe is a sin that I was thinking about, it was if you DO believe something is wrong, but not actively hurting anyone, what do you DO about it? The Bible quite clearly instructs us NOT to judge. (At least it is quite clear to ME.) The Bible also instructs us to love our neighbor. Sometimes the two seem at odds with each other, and I wanted help figuring out where and when it is our right…even our obligation…to make it clear that something is wrong. In other words, when does NOT judging become “condoning?” I think I have a better understanding of the whole subject, this dicussion was very valuable in helping me with that. I’ll try to explain where I GOT to, and I hope I can explain it briefly, so as not to get in the way of your current discussion. If someone is homophobic (to _kind of_ use the subject of the current debate,) but isn’t DOING anything about it, it might be argued that that attitude isn’t actively hurting anyone. My realization, which I posted some time back, is that it has the POTENTIAL of being VERY actively hurtful to others, and it would be wrong to sit by and not SAY so. I would link to that post, but I don’t know how. To use the example I used earlier, I think it probable that a whole LOT of people sat by in the early days of Hitler and felt that Hitler was WRONG in his attitudes toward non-Aryan people, but didn’t say anything. Since his attitudes HAD the potential to harm others, (and in fact…of course…DID end up with the loss of freedom/the death of/millions of people) then if I had been there in the beginning before the actual ACTIVE horror started, and NOT said that I thought Hitler’s attitudes were WRONG, then I would have been “condoning” something that I felt had great potential for harm. Anyway…now I probably just totally confused the whole issue, but that is my two cents on it. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/133 "2003-01-03T20:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\* I agree that gays need to work on accepting others with differing points of view. \*\* Why should we accept a point of view that leads to us being [physically abused](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135183), [legally discriminated against](http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/flr.nsf/85256269004a991e8525611300214487/6084a2ad0b8c01bb85256b73007d55a5?OpenDocument), [jailed](http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbur/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=425307), [discharged from military service](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1115-03.htm), [denied the same rights as our heterosexual friends](http://gaylife.about.com/library/blheterobenefits.htm) and puts us in a less secure postion in regards to [employment](http://www.hrc.org/issues/workplace/index.asp) and [housing](http://apartments.about.com/library/articles/bl_statesglbt.htm) in most states?. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/134 "2003-01-03T20:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*_Homosexuality_ is the state of being attracted to others of the same sex. Please point out the appropriate chapters and verses that condemn it. \*\* Are you talking about just the feelings or attractions to the same sex or talking about homosexuality itself, the actions of sex with the same gender? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/135 "2003-01-03T20:59:19Z")
There is nothing wrong with condemning homosexuality if you believe it is a sin — so long as you are willing to accept condemnation of your own sins as perceived by others. Take what you want, but eat what you take. ---
**Author:** ![Mithrilhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mithrilhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithrilhawk)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/136 "2003-01-03T21:02:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\ ***Mithrilhawk** , are you or are you not intolerant of homosexual sex? If that’s how you’re defining bigotry, then you’ve got your answer. > > Esprix \*\* I tolerate it – I’m not in your bedroom and I’m not calling the thought police and I’m not demanding that you stop and I’m not calling you names. On the other hand, some people here are demanding that I shut up, that I change my opinion. That’s intolerance. Why it’s anti-Christian bigotry. In all seriousness… I recognize that the homosexual community is the target of a lot of thick-skulled ignorant hatred. Further, that a lot of the haters use the Bible as a weapon. I also recognize that I will never understand precisely what it is like to live under such conditions. I do hope to point out, though, that intolerance of my opinion to the point of name calling is based more on emotions than logic. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/137 "2003-01-03T21:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t know of any Scriptural references a out attraction to the same sex other than the ones that condemn homosexuality. \*\* I assume you know what you’re talking about, and you say there are ones that condemn homosexuality. I’d like to know which ones. That goes for anyone here, feel free to supply 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Mithrilhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mithrilhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithrilhawk)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/138 "2003-01-03T21:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Well, **Mithrilhawk** , one obvious distinction I’d make is in the issue of whether _it’s any of your business_ what somebody else does. To one extent, as a Christian, it _is_ my business – because I am supposed to love and respect every other human being as I would myself. The problem in that is that if I attempt to apply the standards by which I judge myself to them without some very obvious sign of caring and compassion being evident to them, they are going to see it as me sitting in judgment over them. > > “Tolerance” to me simply means, “By me you’re free to do what you want, and I won’t try to interfere with you living your life as you like unless you welcome my becoming a part of it – at which point I’ll be your friend, privileged to hold you when you cry, rejoice with you when you’re happy, encourage you when you’re afraid to try something, and guide you when you have a tough decision to make – and I’ll expect the same back from you.” You are in no way condoning or endorsing what Joe does that is not what you’d do, simply giving him the respect he deserves as another one of God’s children to follow his own moral judgments and do what he feels right for him. > > I once tried to make the distinction that is very clear to me between “tolerance” and “acceptance” – the first implying a judgment and the second not. But that’s a separate ball of wax. > \*\* I can endorse everything you said here with only insignificant quibbling. Sure, sign my name to the above statements. \*\* > [@](#): > > “If you want to live together, it’s no skin off my nose, but if you want a legally sanctioned marriage, that implies that the state approves of your behavior, and I don’t want them to do that.” Is the latter the sort of thing you really meant? \*\* This is also an accurate statement of my opinion. It’s also indicative of the issue, Backwards, for example, is likely to insist that if I don’t condone gay marriage, it’s because I hate homosexuals. By extension, only by endorsing this issue can he consider me \* not \* a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/139 "2003-01-03T21:14:22Z")
Leviticus 18:22 Leviticus 20:13 Romans 1:26-27 1 Cor 6:9 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470/140 "2003-01-03T21:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mithrilhawk \* > \*\*This is also an accurate statement of my opinion. It’s also indicative of the issue, Backwards, for example, is likely to insist that if I don’t condone gay marriage, it’s because I hate homosexuals. By extension, only by endorsing this issue can he consider me \* not \* a bigot. \*\* By what reasoning besides bigotry can you oppose allowing gay people the same marriage rights as heterosexuals. What about the other issues I raised earlier? Would you tolerate those limits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judging-vs-condoning-vs-interpretation-another-christian-debate/139470.md?page=8)