# Julian Assange and WikiLeaks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184 "2010-11-28T18:07:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/141 "2010-11-30T03:49:51Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Except they aren’t fighting for democracy. They’re killing innocents and risking their own lives for the benefit of a few. They are flatly undermining democracy. We elect our leaders. We elect them, in part, to keep us safe. To those ends, some documents are deemed to be for a very small set of eyes. We elect those people who we feel will do this wisely. When another party chooses to leak those documents they, in essence, say fuck you to the democracy we enjoy and our country is founded upon. > [@sleeping](#): > > And there is no reason to believe this will actually result in a danger to anyone. Now, it would create some measure of accountability, which is good for democracy. Sure there is. The reason is that some people have deemed them worthy to be 'classified", “secret”, or “top secret”. Do they get it right all the time. Of course not. And I’m sure we can have interesting conversations about a particular documents worthiness of classification, but for it 1) to be done wholesale, and 2) by people we haven’t elected is criminal. It works against our interests, not for them. > [@sleeping](#): > > When has secrecy ever engendered democracy? It’s basically antithetical to it. Two words: Operation Overlord. One easy example of many. Or do you think someone should have leaked the information about the D-day invasion? > [@sleeping](#): > > And how is being involved in the domestic affairs of other countries, torturing people, spying on them compatible with smaller government? You see, here your problem is revealed. You’re thinking that things like this will be revealed, which you favor. And let’s say that revealing ALL these things are a good thing. That does not mean that there aren’t also things that should _not_ be revealed. That’s why this kind of thing can’t be dome wholesale. and it should one done by people who we can hold accountable. Assange did the former and is not the latter. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/142 "2010-11-30T03:55:19Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Let’s say I have confidential reports from the U.S. Army. My desire is to highlight what I think are problems, perhaps even large ones, with the way things are run. But within those reports are also things that, if released, will lead to foes getting information that may help them kill U.S. soldiers. Sometimes the difference is unclear. I need to decide which documents to release, and which to hold back. > > Should I give the task of making that decision to you or **Der Trihs**? It depends on what’s released. If we can look a handful of documents and readily assess their importance, we can mete out punishment accordingly. If it’s done en masse, sorry **Private Der Trihs** , you’ll not be seeing the outside of a cell for 50 years. If then. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/143 "2010-11-30T04:04:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > They are flatly undermining democracy. We elect our leaders. We elect them, in part, to keep us safe. To those ends, some documents are deemed to be for a very small set of eyes. We elect those people who we feel will do this wisely. When another party chooses to leak those documents they, in essence, say fuck you to the democracy we enjoy and our country is founded upon. Democracy only works if people can make informed decisions. If a given official is scum on legs, letting him keep his unethical behaviour hidden and thus keep on getting reelected _hurts_ democracy, not helps it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/144 "2010-11-30T04:17:55Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Democracy only works if people can make informed decisions. If a given official is scum on legs, letting him keep his unethical behaviour hidden and thus keep on getting reelected _hurts_ democracy, not helps it. Except these leaks aren’t about our elected officials. These are leaks of diplomatic cables, stuff like “The Saudi Arabian Foreign minister encouraged us privately to take strong action against Iran” or “In the opinion of our analysts, the British public won’t support more British casualties in Afghanistan” If this was something like Watergate, then sure, it should come out. But these are actual, honest to goodness affairs of state, and it’s stuff that shouldn’t be made public. It’s stuff that will actively hurt the United States by making it public and make it more difficult for us to use influence and project our power around the world. Don’t you people get that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/145 "2010-11-30T04:18:37Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Democracy only works if people can make informed decisions. If a given official is scum on legs, letting him keep his unethical behaviour hidden and thus keep on getting reelected _hurts_ democracy, not helps it. Agreed. But that does not justify the release of classified documents en masse. Even if a piece of unethical scum is thrown out on his ear because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/146 "2010-11-30T04:19:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It depends on what’s released. If we can look a handful of documents and readily assess their importance, we can mete out punishment accordingly. If it’s done en masse, sorry **Private Der Trihs** , you’ll not be seeing the outside of a cell for 50 years. If then. Right. Because you wouldn’t need to be particularly cowed by a deterrent. \*\*Der Trihs \*\*might be more willing to release more information, so the deterrent works to counter-act his releasing of documents. Now imagine a person consumed by idealogy to the extent that they are less still bothered about potential dangers to U.S. soldiers. They won’t be cowed by worrying about danger; nor will they be cowed by the threat of deterrents. So in our hypothetical situation, it’s they who will decide to release the information. And as a result, more potential danger. Harsh deterrents don’t stop the irrational. If my choice is between leaks being handled by someone with at least some sanity, and someone who cares for nothing except proving a point, then I want the former, please. IOW, if you say that anyone who leaks will get a bullet to the head, you will only get people willing to take a bullet to the head leaking documents. Why would you want such difficult, nuanced decisions in the hands of such a person? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/147 "2010-11-30T04:19:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Pretty good, especially when I get to point out what a lying douchebag you are. Like I’ve done twice now. You can’t even count you little fart. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/148 "2010-11-30T05:05:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Zero tolerance. You either get locked up for 50 years or you wind up with a bullet in your head. Pretty soon, your oh-so-important, oh-so-high-and-might agenda doesn’t doesn’t seem quite THAT important. Which you of course like since that means the government has a better chance of getting away with things that you like, such as torture. It means that the government will be better able to lie, oppress, torture and murder by threatening the lives of any who speak out against it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/149 "2010-11-30T05:07:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except these leaks aren’t about our elected officials. These are leaks of diplomatic cables, stuff like “The Saudi Arabian Foreign minister encouraged us privately to take strong action against Iran” or “In the opinion of our analysts, the British public won’t support more British casualties in Afghanistan” How about “Obama’s pick for Secretary of State once again proves she cannot be trusted”? > [@](#): > > It’s stuff that will actively hurt the United States by making it public and make it more difficult for us to use influence and project our power around the world. Don’t you people get that? Maybe you don’t _deserve_ to project your power, if it means you’re going to act like common criminals and go stealing UN officials’ credit card details. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/150 "2010-11-30T05:41:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > How about “Obama’s pick for Secretary of State once again proves she cannot be trusted”? First of all, the Secretary of State position isn’t an elected one. Secondly, there’s nothing there that proves she can’t be trusted. > [@](#): > > Maybe you don’t _deserve_ to project your power, if it means you’re going to act like common criminals and go stealing UN officials’ credit card details. Deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it. It’s the job of the US government to try to protect and expand its power internationally. A strong United States is good for America and the people of America. A weak US isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/151 "2010-11-30T05:44:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which you of course like since that means the government has a better chance of getting away with things that you like, such as torture. It means that the government will be better able to lie, oppress, torture and murder by threatening the lives of any who speak out against it. You’re a fucking clown. A sad, pathetic, unmoral, America-hating clown—but a clown nonetheless. And an imbecile. Oh, and you seem to think you’re clairvoyant, too. Well, you’re as wrong about as you are about all the other ignorant shit you spew. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/152 "2010-11-30T05:48:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it. It’s the job of the US government to try to protect and expand its power internationally. A strong United States is good for America and the people of America. A weak US isn’t. Hardly. American adventurism has gotten quite a few Americans killed. America’s greed and messianic capitalism helped cause the world economic collapse; a weaker US would have meant a smaller disaster. And even more to the point; if “deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it”, if right and wrong doesn’t matter then you also have no grounds to complain when someone reveals secrets. Or knocks down a skyscraper for that matter. But of course people’s disdain for morality suddenly vanishes when they are the ones getting hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/153 "2010-11-30T05:51:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re a fucking clown. A sad, pathetic, unmoral, America-hating clown—but a clown nonetheless. > > And an imbecile. There’s nothing that scum like yourself could say that would shake my conviction that I am superior to you. Whenever there is a moral argument, you are there tirelessly arguing on the side of bigotry and cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/154 "2010-11-30T05:52:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Right. Because you wouldn’t need to be particularly cowed by a deterrent. \*\*Der Trihs \*\*might be more willing to release more information, so the deterrent works to counter-act his releasing of documents. > > Now imagine a person consumed by idealogy to the extent that they are less still bothered about potential dangers to U.S. soldiers. They won’t be cowed by worrying about danger; nor will they be cowed by the threat of deterrents. So in our hypothetical situation, it’s they who will decide to release the information. And as a result, more potential danger. Harsh deterrents don’t stop the irrational. If my choice is between leaks being handled by someone with at least some sanity, and someone who cares for nothing except proving a point, then I want the former, please. > > IOW, if you say that anyone who leaks will get a bullet to the head, you will only get people willing to take a bullet to the head leaking documents. Why would you want such difficult, nuanced decisions in the hands of such a person? I think you’re making this WAY harder than it really is. Think of it as being akin to killing the President or Prime Minister. We don’t have a lot of attempts, because the price is so high. So, we’re stuck with worrying about nitwits like **Der Trihs**. Also, keep in mind that we’;re not talking about the general population here. We’re talking about people who would already have a pretty serious degree of clearance. The fem soldier got through the cracks. It’ll be harder from here on out. Especially if we make an example of him. They should bring him to trial FAST, and then lock his ass up even faster. If he warrants the death penalty, so much the better. Televise it. By say…April. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/155 "2010-11-30T06:00:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s nothing that scum like yourself could say that would shake my conviction that I am superior to you. No doubt. But you’re deranged. People _on your own side_ of many of these debates have told you that you’re a shithead and to shut the fuck up. Numerous times. You’re damaged goods. Really. Thank you parents. If you were a blender you’d have been thrown away long ago. Then again, maybe you were. Pretty likely, actually. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Whenever there is a moral argument, you are there tirelessly arguing on the side of bigotry and cruelty. Well, that’s your subjective opinion. (See above.) Opinions differ. But only one of our opinions is grounded in sanity. Hint: it ain’t yours. Helter Skelter. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/156 "2010-11-30T06:19:22Z")
Bah. I already know (guess) what the US is doing around the world. I want to know what the Russians and Chinese are passing around. That would be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/157 "2010-11-30T06:21:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing is, getting butt-hurt about Assange misses the point. Of course it is. If anything, Assange here has done you a massive favour and will be the target of curses from non-US intelligence agencies around the world. But you can’t expect an idiot like Magellan to understand that. What Assange has published is a list of info downloaded by Pfc Bradley Manning and passed onto him. Private, first class. Your data security is so shit that the 3rd fucking lowest class enlisted ranked personnel can access secret documents that have nothing to do with him. How many other countries do you think have benefited from this ridiculous laxness? How many have managed to find a person with similar security clearance as Bradley, or higher, and paid them? At a guess, I’d have thought pretty much all of them. So, you should be thanking Assange for pointing out that, in data security terms, you’ve left the family silver on the front lawn for anyone to pick up. You should be demanding that your government starts taking data security seriously, cracking down on the systems in place, the methodology used for monitoring access, the level of access given. Because until then, all you’re doing is shooting the messenger. But I seriously doubt you’ll do that, because this isn’t the first time in the last few years that someone waltzed into your supposedly secure systems and helped themselves, and the US is still trying to screw him over. [Last time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon) it was a barely competent alien conspiracy theorist with Aspergers who waltzed through unsecured machines and wide open firewalls, and you’re trying to frame him as a criminal mastermind who caused $800,000 in damage. In short, all recent evidence suggests that your government/military IT security is farcical, at a time when computer warfare is a growing [military](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet) [tactic](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/01/google-censorship-china/) and until you start taking this shit seriously, you can expect to see further such events, or something much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/158 "2010-11-30T06:22:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hardly. American adventurism has gotten quite a few Americans killed. America’s greed and messianic capitalism helped cause the world economic collapse; a weaker US would have meant a smaller disaster. > > And even more to the point; if “deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it”, if right and wrong doesn’t matter then you also have no grounds to complain when someone reveals secrets. Or knocks down a skyscraper for that matter. But of course people’s disdain for morality suddenly vanishes when they are the ones getting hurt. You know what? You’re not even worth arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/159 "2010-11-30T06:29:14Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You can’t even count you little fart. I count fine. You’re the one with the cognitive problems. Caught you lying in the other thread; that’s one. Caught you lying in this thread; that’s two. Two lies in two threads. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184/160 "2010-11-30T06:30:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First of all, the Secretary of State position isn’t an elected one. But the President is. He’s the one that put her there, and he should have known better. > [@](#): > > Secondly, there’s nothing there that proves she can’t be trusted. I’m sure the officials being spied on and stolen from under her orders (in violation of the 1946 UN Convention) feel differently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/julian-assange-and-wikileaks/562184.md?page=9)