# Junk Sunk **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620 "2009-04-28T15:11:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/21 "2009-04-29T17:05:10Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > My #1 rule of the road is “Assume any big ship is controlled by a crazy maniac who is out to get you so best run in the opposite direction as fast as you can”. It seems these guys could’ve used it. You run into a lot of big ships on the road? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/22 "2009-04-29T23:56:15Z")
By the by, the test is rather silly at this point, although it’s interesting to do. It was long ago shown that you could explore pretty darn well with a very limited vessel. People have sailed the oceans in canoes, coracles, reed boats, viking longships, etc. A junk is not a perfect vessel (like the aforementioned others), but it’s more than respectable. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/23 "2009-04-30T03:18:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What you gon’ do with all that junk? All that junk inside your trunk? Technically, it’s in Davy Jones’ trunk. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/24 "2009-04-30T09:38:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I would substitute “lazy bastard” for “crazy maniac”. I did not mean to imply they really are crazy maniacs but only that I behave as if they were crazy maniacs and out to get me. It is about my behavior not about them. I also tell this to anyone who takes the helm. I do not want to have a collission and then hear excuses like “I thought there was plenty of space” while we are being rescued. And _still_ people are careless. I think life at home has been made so easy and idiot-proof that people do the most idiotic things without a clue as to how dangerous they are. > [@Rysto](#): > > You run into a lot of big ships on the road? I know you are joking but for the benefit of those who don’t know I’ll say the **[colregs](http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html)** are commonly known as “rules of the road”. And, no, there is no rule that “freighters always have the right of way” but it is useful for me to pretend such rule exists. (There is not even the concept of “right of way” in the colregs.) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/25 "2009-04-30T09:51:50Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I did not mean to imply they really are crazy maniacs but only that I behave as if they were crazy maniacs and out to get me. I understood that, your comment just provided me with a good excuse to relate what I have seen. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/26 "2009-04-30T13:51:26Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > But just out of curiosity wasn’t it the junk, being vastly smaller, that was supposed to give way? > [@tdn](#): > > Craft under sail always have the right of way over powered craft. But big ships are harder to maneuver, so I’m not sure. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I don’t know if it’s strictly accurate, but when I was learning to sail, I was taught that freighers have right of way over _everything_. I can always remember the right of way rules because they all boil down to “the least maneuverable craft has right of way” (except the port/starbord tack one, but even that one used to.) > [@Isamu](#): > > Yes, you give way to a ship that is restricted in its ability to maneuver, so sailing vessels don’t always have the right of way. The [International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (COLREGS)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea) define which ship has the right-of-way (the “stand-on vessel”], and which vessel does not (the “give-way vessel”]. The term “vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver” does NOT mean a large vessel. It means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by the rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. It includes vessels engaged in laying cables, navigation marks, dredging, underway replenishment, or towing. This is often confused with a “vessel constrained by her draft,” which means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following. A freighter in the open ocean not engaged in towing is neither “restricted in her ability to maneuver” nor “constrained by her draft,” so neither of these situations would apply in this case. If the sailing vessel was not overtaking the freighter, then, according to the COLREGS, the sailing vessel would have had the right-of-way. **Zoid** , there is no rule that states that the smaller vessel must always give way. **tdn** , craft under sail do generally have the right-of-way over powered vessels, (in the open ocean away from narrow channels and traffic schemes), but they must give way if they are overtaking another vessel, or if the other vessel is restricted in her ability to maneuver or is fishing. **iamthewalrus(:3=;**, there is no rule that states that “freighters have right of way over _everything_,” nor is there a rule that “the least maneuverable craft has right of way.” Practically speaking, small sailing vessels may give way when they actually have the right of way (especially if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action), but they should communicate their intentions. It sounds like the junk did everything that it was supposed to. I hope that the owner of the freighter has good insurance. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/27 "2009-04-30T13:56:34Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > (There is not even the concept of “right of way” in the colregs.) I’ve always equated the “stand-on vessel” to the vessel that has the “right-of-way.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/28 "2009-04-30T17:04:49Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I’ve always equated the “stand-on vessel” to the vessel that has the “right-of-way.” Well, not really. The colregs do not give any vessel any rights, rather, they impose obligations on both vessels. One is obligated to maintain course and speed while the other one is obligated to turn (or rather to stay out of the way of the other one). Saying one has the right, as well as the obligation, to maintain course and speed is like saying the other one has the right, as well as the obligation, to turn. In fact, the give way vessel has more rights because it has more freedom to maneuver. The stand-on vessel only has the right to keep doing what it was already doing. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/29 "2009-04-30T17:17:31Z")
> [@robby](#): > > **iamthewalrus(:3=;**, there is no rule that states that “freighters have right of way over _everything_,” nor is there a rule that “the least maneuverable craft has right of way.” I didn’t mean to say that the first was actually a rule, only that I was taught that (for practical reasons). And I didn’t claim that the last was a rule, either, just that the right of way rules can generally be remembered by using that as a rule of thumb. For example: Which boat has right of way: overtaking, or overtaken? Well, the overtaking boat is more agile in the same wind, so it’s more maneuverable. Windward or leeward? The leeward boat is in the shadow of the windward boat, so it’s less maneuverable, etc. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/30 "2009-04-30T17:28:40Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > For example: Which boat has right of way: overtaking, or overtaken? This is easy. The overtaking vessel is always the give-way vessel regardless of whether either of the vessels are powered or under sail. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Well, the overtaking boat is more agile in the same wind, so it’s more maneuverable. Windward or leeward? The leeward boat is in the shadow of the windward boat, so it’s less maneuverable, etc. All of this is irrelevant. If a vessel is overtaking another vessel, it is the give-way vessel. This is true even if the overtaking vessel is under sail, and the vessel being overtaken is power-driven, and hence more maneuverable. The overtaking sail-powered vessel must still give way and steer clear of the powered overtaken vessel. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/31 "2009-04-30T17:45:30Z")
If the ships are approaching head on, more or less, how is one said to be overtaking the other? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/32 "2009-04-30T17:53:43Z")
> [@robby](#): > > **iamthewalrus(:3=;**, there is no rule that states that “freighters have right of way over _everything_,” nor is there a rule that “the least maneuverable craft has right of way.” > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I didn’t mean to say that the first was actually a rule, only that I was taught that (for practical reasons). And I didn’t claim that the last was a rule, either, just that the right of way rules can generally be remembered by using that as a rule of thumb. As you said earlier, you learned these “rules” when you were learning to sail, which is usually pretty good guidance, especially in bays and other restricted waterways where the large vessels are following traffic schemes, etc. What’s bad is when sailors don’t learn the actual COLREGS “rules of the road,” and you end up with sailing vessels that think they have the right of way over all other vessels (which they don’t), or freighters who think the same thing because they are so used to other vessels always giving way to them. This is when collisions at sea tend to occur. Personal anecdote time: I was leaving port on the surface in a submarine once, in low visibility conditions, and had a crossing situation where I was the stand-on vessel. The other vessel was a merchant who was the give-way vessel. It became apparent the the merchant was not maneuvering to avoid us. I contacted him on the bridge-to-bridge radio, and the a\*\*hole actually told me to “get out of his way.” I suspect he thought I was some small sailboat or cabin cruiser, because even on the surface, subs tend to look very small both visually and on radar. Anyway, I was driving a 6,900-ton warship, and had no inclination to give way. We didn’t like to identify ourselves over the radio, so my reply was something to the effect of “This is a United States warship–you are directed to give way immediately.” He immediately changed course. P.S. Yes, I’ve heard the old joke–I never had a similar exchange with a lighthouse. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/33 "2009-04-30T17:58:20Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Personal anecdote time: I was leaving port on the surface in a submarine once, in low visibility conditions, and had a crossing situation where I was the stand-on vessel. The other vessel was a merchant who was the give-way vessel. It became apparent the the merchant was not maneuvering to avoid us. I contacted him on the bridge-to-bridge radio, and the a\*\*hole actually told me to “get out of his way.” I suspect he thought I was some small sailboat or cabin cruiser, because even on the surface, subs tend to look very small both visually and on radar. O/T: How does that work, actually? (The ship to ship call.) How do you make the target ship aware that you are trying to contact him, _specifically_? Were you able to make out the name of the vessel painted on the side? If no name is visible, do you use a “blinker light” to get someone on the bridge of the other ship to wake up and turn on the radio? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/34 "2009-04-30T17:58:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If the ships are approaching head on, more or less, how is one said to be overtaking the other? They aren’t–that’s a different situation. In a head-on situation involving two power-driven vessels, both vessels adjust course to starboard to avoid each other. If one vessel is a sailboat, it maintains course and speed as the give-way vessel. The other vessel adjusts course and speed as necessary to avoid the sailboat. For two sailboats approaching head-on, it’s more complicated and depends on the direction of the wind. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/35 "2009-04-30T18:12:14Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > O/T: How does that work, actually? (The ship to ship call.) > > How do you make the target ship aware that you are trying to contact him, _specifically_? Were you able to make out the name of the vessel painted on the side? If no name is visible, do you use a “blinker light” to get someone on the bridge of the other ship to wake up and turn on the radio? All ships over a certain size in U.S. waters are required to monitor certain frequencies. I’d forgotten the channels, but according to this [link](http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/vhf.htm), VHF Channel 13 is reserved for these types of communications. It’s usually not too difficult to figure out who is talking to who. That being said, at the distances we are talking about (4,000-6,000 yards), it’s much too far to make out the names of ships. > [@mlees](#): > > If no name is visible, do you use a “blinker light” to get someone on the bridge of the other ship to wake up and turn on the radio? 😃 No–you just talk to them over the radio, which they are required to monitor at all times. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/36 "2009-04-30T18:20:20Z")
> [@robby](#): > > … > 😃 No–you just talk to them over the radio, which they are required to monitor at all times. Aren’t they also required not to run over and crush other vessels? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/37 "2009-04-30T18:27:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Aren’t they also required not to run over and crush other vessels? 😛 Maybe this is more of a suggestion, or a courtesy. 🙂 I am so proud to have initiated a thread discussing the arcana of navigation. Where is the “I’m so proud” smiley. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/38 "2009-04-30T19:01:40Z")
> [@robby](#): > > All ships over a certain size in U.S. waters are required to monitor certain frequencies. I’d forgotten the channels, but according to this [link](http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/vhf.htm), VHF Channel 13 is reserved for these types of communications. > > It’s usually not too difficult to figure out who is talking to who. > > That being said, at the distances we are talking about (4,000-6,000 yards), it’s much too far to make out the names of ships. > > 😃 No–you just talk to them over the radio, which they are required to monitor at all times. Heh, right. I figured when they are near land, they are probably more “on the ball” about monitoring the radio. However, if they were on the ball in the first place, they would know the rules of navigation, too. I was wondering about the actual radio call. Is it: “Unknown frieghter 5000 yards on my port bow, this is the _U.S.S. Houston_. Request you change course 30 degrees to port…”? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/39 "2009-04-30T21:09:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I was wondering about the actual radio call. Is it: “Unknown frieghter 5000 yards on my port bow, this is the _U.S.S. Houston_. Request you change course 30 degrees to port…”? [http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/radio.htm](http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/radio.htm) Establish contact on hailing channel, switch to another channel, conduct your business there. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620/40 "2009-04-30T21:42:01Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > [http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/radio.htm](http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/radio.htm) > > Establish contact on hailing channel, switch to another channel, conduct your business there. The example given in link assumes you know the name of the target ship. Hence, my question above. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/junk-sunk/494620.md?page=3)