# Just curious how drowning a bunch of kids can be considered God's will **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2025, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860 "2025-07-15T01:00:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/221 "2025-07-16T16:42:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it possible to survive without faith in a deity? > Is it possible to survive without science? Yes to both. For me personally science contributes much more. Organized religion is to me often worth pitting. But human societies seem to have always had some faith element and have not always had science. So as someone who believes in science I would conclude that any claim that science is required for human survival or culture is falsified, and as of yet any claim that religion is not required for culture at least is not yet falsified. Faith is like any tool. It is used well to good ends and it is used highly effectively for bad purposes as well. I don’t have faith myself but I definitely have experienced times that I recognize I would have benefited from having it. I have known many people who have been inspired by faith to do great things for others. I respect them immensely. And they do not try to impose their beliefs on me. I detest those who use the tool for bad ends. And I would detest them in any case because if they weren’t abusing faith as a tool they would abuse other tools of power. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/222 "2025-07-16T16:44:24Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Don’t all religions believe _they_ are the only correct one? > > Large wars have been fought over it. I’m not gonna say all Buddhists don’t believe they are the one true dogma because there is a huge range of Buddhist beliefs. But even the Buddha himself said, “Work out your own salvation.” And it’s not unheard of to have Buddhist Christians (Thich Nhat Hanh was Catholic.) But I think it’s a fair assessment to say Christianity is less contradictory of Buddhist beliefs than Buddhism is contradictory to Christian beliefs. My Presbyterian minister friend believes that his religion is the one true way, as distinct from other forms of Christianity, that appears particularly idiosyncratic to me. We watched a documentary together about the (unhealthy, arguably racist) obsession some sects of Christianity have with the state of Israel. It was a biased documentary, but interesting. When we tried to discuss it, and we were saying, “Some Christians are doing this,” it was really hard for him to get past the idea that the other Christians’ beliefs were not Biblical. It’s like he couldn’t even process that Christians were doing this because what they were doing was contrary to his interpretation of the Bible. My friend does have formal education in Biblical scholarship. I don’t agree with his view of Christianity but I do admire that he rejects beliefs that are popular with Christians that have no Biblical basis, such as heaven, the existence of hell as a place of eternal punishment, guardian angels, and the belief that God is omniscient, all powerful and all benevolent. He doesn’t believe everything that happens is God’s plan. Don’t get me wrong, he believes some weird stuff. But I imagine he feels the same about me. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/223 "2025-07-16T16:45:36Z")
Pretty sure that everyone expects someone to say “shit” when the toilet is clogged during a norovirus outbreak. But when the foo shits wear it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/224 "2025-07-16T16:48:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But human societies seem to have always had some faith element and have not always had science. Even the simplest of societies used science (measuring, weighing, mixing etc.) so I find it extremely difficult to believe that you could survive wihout it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/225 "2025-07-16T16:50:01Z")
Using that ugly phrase is about as low as flinging shit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/226 "2025-07-16T16:51:15Z")
You have a very … expansive … definition of science. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/227 "2025-07-16T16:52:03Z")
No, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/228 "2025-07-16T16:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Man: No you didn’t. > > Mr. Vibrating: Yes I did. > > Man: You didn’t. > > Mr. Vibrating: Did. > > Man: Oh look, this isn’t an argument. > > Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is. > > Man: No it isn’t. It’s just contradiction. > > Mr. Vibrating: No it isn’t. > > Man: It is! > > Mr. Vibrating: It is not. > > Man: Look, you just contradicted me. > > Mr. Vibrating: I did not. > > Man: Oh you did!! > > Mr. Vibrating: No, no, no. > > Man: You did just then. > > Mr. Vibrating: Nonsense! > > Man: Oh, this is futile! > > Mr. Vibrating: No it isn’t. > > Man: I came here for a good argument. > > Mr. Vibrating: No you didn’t; no, you came here for an argument. > > Man: An argument isn’t just contradiction. > > Mr. Vibrating: It can be. > > Man: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. > > Mr. Vibrating: No it isn’t. > > Man: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction. > > Mr. Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. > > Man: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’ > > Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is! > > Man: No it isn’t! > > Man: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. > > _(short pause)_ > > Mr. Vibrating: No it isn’t. Anyway someone throwing shit feigning upset at being labeled what they clearly are is almost as entertaining as Python! > [@](#): > > Mr. Barnard: Don’t give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! > > Man: What? > > Mr. Barnard: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!!! > > Man: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I’m not going to just stand…!! > > Mr. Barnard: OH, oh I’m sorry, but this is abuse. > > Man: Oh, I see, well, that explains it. > > Mr. Barnard: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor. > > Man: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/229 "2025-07-16T17:00:15Z")
Well, that was certainly a stupid diversion, but not totally unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![ByuBilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@ByuBilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ByuBilly)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/230 "2025-07-16T17:12:30Z")
Is this you trying to “trump” it away so people will forget you said measuring etc isn’t science? D’oh… Just take the L… ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/231 "2025-07-16T17:37:15Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > God is not a Christian, to my knowledge. I’m sort of sorry to quibble, but I think this is important: what you have is belief or faith, not knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/232 "2025-07-16T17:43:02Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Christianity describes God as all loving and wanting His people to be happy Well, except when he’s sending them to hell. There are plenty of branches of Christianity that believe in a jealous and vengeful god – one whose punishment is eternal, yet. The distinction you’re trying to make in that post between Christians in general as worshiping a loving god and Judaism and Islam as worshiping a harsh and spiteful one really doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/233 "2025-07-16T18:30:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > the usual militant atheists The most hilariously inept characterization since that time at the Indiana State Fair with the guy sitting on a platform over a tank of water (you were supposed to hit a target with a baseball, dumping him into the water) who was trying to throw me off my game with insults. “Hey, hippie! How was Woodstock?” \*this was many years ago in my hairier days. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/234 "2025-07-16T18:59:50Z")
I’m at a loss as to what exactly is being avenged when an infant with a lifespan of only a few hours is born with harlequin-type ichthyosis. I’d like to believe, rather than divine retribution, it’s God’s challenge to his children to act charitable and comfort the parents as best as possible, or rise to their potential in seeking prevention and cure. But the current religious-political nexus in the USA maintains that I’m full of shit ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/235 "2025-07-16T19:08:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it possible to survive without faith in a deity? > Is it possible to survive without science? I think it’s obvious that the answer is Yes and a resounding NO. And that those who _think_ they’re living without science should be glad that science (for instance, gravity) is still working for them. . At one of the No Kings protests, some people from our church were wearing shirts that had big white type on black: **SCIENCE DOESN’T** **GIVE A FÙCK** **WHAT YOU BELIEVE** ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/236 "2025-07-16T19:10:42Z")
FWIW I do find the question of what is the minimum to be considered science a potentially interesting one to discuss. It isn’t a Pit discussion though. Feel free to join [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-measuring-and-mixing-science/1020932). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/237 "2025-07-16T19:21:49Z")
To quibble your quibble - A statement saying that “I do not know that God is Christian.” _is_ in fact a statement, an _accurate_ statement, about the person’s knowledge set. As is my saying “I do not know that God exists.” I have a _belief_ that there is no god of the sort that gives any shits about people, and I have some evidence to support that belief, I have no evidence to believe otherwise, but that is not knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/238 "2025-07-16T19:50:44Z")
> [@digs](#): > > At one of the No Kings protests, some people from our church were wearing shirts that had big white type on black: I dunno, I feel like this reinforces the belief that Science is the Enemy that has prompted so much desecration of science in the Trump Administration. Many people get along quite well with science while still being Christian. I think there is an entire domain of… belief, or human experience, or whatever you want to call it, that isn’t rational, and that that’s generally okay, as long as it’s acknowledged as being outside the domain of science and rationality. (I’m thinking specifically of one of my favorite things: romantic love) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/239 "2025-07-16T20:22:42Z")
If it had been phrased that way, there would have been no quibble. Using “to my knowledge” is at best ambiguous, and my quibble was for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2025, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860/240 "2025-07-16T20:43:12Z")
You can absolutely study romantic love using a scientific approach. We can do stuff like monitor heart rate when someone sees the person they love, and note that there’s a physiological component. We can study examples of people sacrificing for non-blood relatives, and see that behavior matches the described internal state. We can hypothesize about a way that an instinct for romantic love might have evolved, and what survival purpose it might serve. There’s nothing about love that’s outside the reach of science. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-curious-how-drowning-a-bunch-of-kids-can-be-considered-gods-will/1020860.md?page=13)