# Just for those who buy the spin that Shrub didn't really know Ken Lay. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832 "2004-07-13T02:29:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/1 "2004-07-13T02:29:19Z")
[![](https://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/163_enron.gif) ](https://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/163_enron.gif) Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/2 "2004-07-13T02:30:20Z")
Who said that Bush and Lay didn’t know each other? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/3 "2004-07-13T02:45:36Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Who said that Bush and Lay didn’t know each other? Bush did not say that they didn’t know each other, but has told some whoppers about the degree of closeness in their relationship. From [this source](http://www.schlatter.org/Dad/Bush%20lies/ken_lay.htm) (and if you don’t like this source, you can find the same quote reported in any one of a number of other publications): > [@](#): > > Bush’s Lie > On January 10 [2002] a reporter asked GWBush about his relationship with Ken Lay. Bush replied: > > "First of all, Ken Lay is a supporter, and I got to know Ken Lay when he was a head of the – what they call the Governor’s Business Council in Texas. He was a supporter of Ann Richards (former Texas governor) in my run against her in 1994, and she named him head of the Governor’s Business Council and I decided to leave him in place, for the sake of continuity. And that’s when I first got to know Ken and worked with Ken, and he supported my candidacy . . . " > > The truth > In fact GWBush knew and associated with Ken Lay long before 1994 and Bush was much closer to Lay than just re-appointing him to a business council. > > … In fact, their association dates back at least to 1990 and, it would appear, is much closer than Mr. Bush would like us to believe. Here’s [just one description](http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/17/bush.lay/) of their cozy relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/4 "2004-07-13T02:48:21Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Who said that Bush and Lay didn’t know each other? [The president’s press secretary; July 08, 2004](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040708-15.html) > [@](#): > > Q But this particular alleged corporate wrongdoer was a personal friend of the President’s, who the President addressed as “Kenny, boy,” who raised a lot of money for the President in the 2000 election cycle, who offered corporate jets to the President for travel in Texas. He did know him well. Does he – > > MR. McCLELLAN: Well, you seem to want to be fairly selective there, because let me point out that he was someone who supported Democrats and Republicans, alike, including the President, as you pointed out. > > Q Well, is that all the President had to say? > > MR. McCLELLAN: That’s how I would describe the relationship, and I think it’s an accurate way to describe the relationship. > > Q Does President Bush consider Ken Lay a personal friend? And did the White House have any communication with the Justice Department leading up to the indictment? > > MR. McCLELLAN: No. This is a Justice Department matter, and we expect the Justice Department to do their job when it comes to cracking down on corporate wrongdoing. In terms of the question you asked about Mr. Lay, the President has already addressed that, and he described it the way I did, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/5 "2004-07-13T04:08:21Z")
Isn’t it true that Ken Lay was the individual who donated the most money to Bush’s 2000 election campaign? You got to figure his name got mentioned once or twice after that. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/6 "2004-07-13T05:10:35Z")
I forgot. Was Ken Lay a ‘have’ or a ‘have more?’ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/7 "2004-07-13T06:04:13Z")
[TheSmokingGun.com](http://TheSmokingGun.com) has copies of letters from Bush to Lay. [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/8 "2004-07-13T06:15:44Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Isn’t it true that Ken Lay was the individual who donated the most money to Bush’s 2000 election campaign? Dunno if he donated more than anyone else offhand, but he sure gave a helluva lot more money to Bush than he did to Bush’s 1994 opponent, Ann Richards: > [@](#): > > [**W.'s First Enron Connection: Update on the Bush-Enron Oil Deal**](http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=21) > After the Enron affair began generating front-page headlines, Bush attempted to distance himself from Enron and Lay. In early January, the President claimed he and Lay had not always been close pals. “He was a supporter of [Texas Governor] Ann Richards in my run [against her] in 1994,” Bush asserted, noting he did not get “to know Ken” and work with him until after he won that election. But campaign records show Lay donated **three times as much money to Bush** in that race as he did to Richards. Then again, Lay is firmly in the GOP tent, since they receive [91% of all of his donations,](http://www.campaignmoney.com/biography/ken_lay.asp) versus 2% for Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/9 "2004-07-13T10:30:47Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > [http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/163\_enron.gif](http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/163_enron.gif) > > Nuff said. Bush knew Hitler, too. Okay, maybe not, but he knew _of_ him, so still… ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/10 "2004-07-13T11:22:26Z")
You’re willing to bang on and on and on and on about how M. Moore is a liar because of inconsistencies but you come in with sarky bollocks when Bush is accused of at best stretching the facts. Consistency thy name is not **Liberal** :wally ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/11 "2004-07-13T11:26:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Bush knew Hitler, too. Okay, maybe not, but he knew _of_ him, so still… No, it was his grandpa, good old Prescott Bush. > [@](#): > > Sarasota Herald-Tribune 11/11/2000: > > “The Bush family fortune came from the Third Reich.” > -John Loftus, former US Justice Dept. Nazi War Crimes investigator and President of the Florida Holocaust Museum [Search results](http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Prescott+Bush+Hitler&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/12 "2004-07-13T11:52:08Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > No, it was his grandpa, good old Prescott Bush. > > [Search results](http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Prescott+Bush+Hitler&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=) This being the place that it is, the more appropriate cite is this one: > [@](#): > > [Was President Bush’s great-grandfather a Nazi? > 14-Feb-2003](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html) > > So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes–witness our dealings with mainland China. > > Loftus tells me there’s more to it than that. He says that the value of German industrial assets in which Bush and friends invested increased during World War II, in part due to slave labor, and that Bush benefited from this increase when the assets were returned–supposedly he got $1.5 million when UBC was liquidated in 1951. I’ll buy the claim that Bush got his share of UBC back–it was an American bank, after all–but the idea that his German holdings increased in value despite being obliterated by Allied bombs is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/13 "2004-07-13T12:21:20Z")
_Oh, Kenny Booooooy The perps, the perps are caaaaalllling…_ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/14 "2004-07-13T12:36:07Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > You’re willing to bang on and on and on and on about how M. Moore is a liar because of inconsistencies but you come in with sarky bollocks when Bush is accused of at best stretching the facts. > > Consistency thy name is not **Liberal** :wally Okay, but sense of humor, thy name is not Yojimbo. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/15 "2004-07-13T12:37:42Z")
Grrrrr I hate when I’m slow. :wally myself 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/16 "2004-07-13T12:49:01Z")
\ I have hated Ken Lay since the mid-80’s, when Enron was formed out of a merger of Houston Natural Gas and Northern Natural Gas based in Omaha. HNG swore up and down that it would keep NNG, a well-respected good corporate citizen and important employer, in Omaha. Then the Texas folks came in and took over the board and its chairman Ken Lay moved everyone to Houston. Damaging to Omaha and disruptive and difficult for a lot of Omaha families. Ken Lay was a snake then and he’s a snake now. In other news, Warren Buffet bought back what was NNG from the Enron fire-sale, moved it back to Omaha, and changed its name back to Northern Natural Gas. God, I love that guy. \ ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/17 "2004-07-13T13:00:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Okay, but sense of humor, thy name is not Yojimbo. 😉 Don’t quit your day job, **Lib**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/18 "2004-07-13T13:16:51Z")
Darn, and I so wanted yours. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/19 "2004-07-13T13:25:10Z")
From **rjung’s** link: “But campaign records show Lay donated three times as much money to Bush in that race as he did to Richards.” A question I’ve long had: Why on Earth do people/corporations donate money to BOTH sides of an election? Doesn’t the that sort of logically cancel out much of the donation? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832/20 "2004-07-13T13:30:17Z")
Not really. It’s kind of like insurance that who ever wins will be beholden to some degree. Lots of industries/companies that you would think would typically only donate to Republican campaigns (and vice versa) donate to both. However, their preferred party will generally get a whole lot more than the other. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-for-those-who-buy-the-spin-that-shrub-didnt-really-know-ken-lay/254832.md?page=2)