# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/181 "2014-11-30T18:44:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here’s what it is you’re still not getting. > > When the cops tell you to put your hands up, DON’T reach for a very realistic replica of a real gun instead. See, the cops take that as a threat. They assume you’re reaching for the gun and that you might use it on them. They do what society allows them to do in these instances, that is, protect themselves. Does this help at all? The answer is really quite simple, if the cops tell you to put your hands up, put your god damn hands up. If they tell you to sit down and cool off, sit the fuck down and cool off. If they tell you to lay on the ground, lay your ass on the ground. Don’t ever reach for a gun, realistic replica included. Rocket science 101. 12 year old boys sometimes don’t even obey their own parents with the speed and utter mindlessness you are demanding here. Once again, not having gone through “Civilian Behavior In The Presence Of A Police Officer Two Seconds Away From Blowing Away Anything That Doesn’t Comprehend And Instantly Comply With Whatever He Is Screaming 101”, _like 100% of the population_, the child panicked. Now you know the child knew that what he had was only a toy, so what do you think he was actually trying to do(not what the officer claimed _he_ thought the child was trying to do)? The kid wasn’t dim-he got A’s and B’s in school, so I don’t think he thought he could shoot it out with them. On the other hand, he’s probably seen enough television and movies to know that the cops usually want you to drop whatever weapons you have immediately. If he heard things being yelled at him from the car as it was speeding up to him, don’t you think it reasonable for him to believe that that was one of the things being yelled? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/182 "2014-11-30T18:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > They were looking for a black man running around brandishing a gun. Is that who they challenged? Was he a man? Did they see him running around? Was he brandishing a gun when they first saw him? Was he black? > Whoopsie! The officer didn’t even collect enough information to ascertain’s Rice gender. Woe be to the petite elderly grandmothers who decide to wear a skullcap on their afternoon constitutional. If they were concerned they had a potential active shooter on their hands, more than one squad car should have been called. The park should have been cordoned off, at the very least. If Rice truly had been armed and dangerous, he could have easily been able to take out the both of them just by virture of being startled. This police work is not the least bit defensible. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/183 "2014-11-30T18:51:32Z")
Morgenstern, the overwhelming majority of people in this thread are embarrassed for you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/184 "2014-11-30T18:53:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I recall the police in this incident reporting that they saw Rice put the replica firearm in his waistband before approaching. If that’s true then they knew he had it and assumed it was real. It’s not like they randomly pulled up on a kid and he happened to be the kid the 911 call was about. [From here](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/11/23/young_boy_with_toy_gun_shot_by_cleveland_police.html): I’m looking at the video while reading this description from your link: > [@](#): > > The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said. Is that how you would describe how the officer left the vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/185 "2014-11-30T18:55:42Z")
Do you think the police are lying? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/186 "2014-11-30T18:59:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you think the police are lying? I think they are word-playing. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/187 "2014-11-30T18:59:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They were looking for a _black man_ running around brandishing a gun. Is that who they challenged? Was he a man? Did they see him running around? Was he brandishing a gun when they first saw him? Was he black? > Whoopsie! Yes, that is who they challenged. Unless you’re contending that there’s a different person who was seen brandishing a weapon that the police didn’t catch. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/188 "2014-11-30T19:03:20Z")
Also, why is everyone going on about Rice’s intentions when he reached for the gun\*? How is that relevant to the officer’s actions? \*And it was a gun, not a toy. Airsoft guns fire pellets. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/189 "2014-11-30T19:06:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, why is everyone going on about Rice’s intentions when he reached for the gun\*? How is that relevant to the officer’s actions? > > \*And it was a gun, not a toy. Airsoft guns fire pellets. Plastic pellets. They are toys. Do you need a link? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/190 "2014-11-30T19:06:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, that is who they challenged. Unless you’re contending that there’s a different person who was seen brandishing a weapon that the police didn’t catch. No, they did _not_ challenge a black man running around brandishing a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/191 "2014-11-30T19:13:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 12 year old boys sometimes don’t even obey their own parents with the speed and utter mindlessness you are demanding here. Once again, not having gone through “Civilian Behavior In The Presence Of A Police Officer Two Seconds Away From Blowing Away Anything That Doesn’t Comprehend And Instantly Comply With Whatever He Is Screaming 101”, > _like 100% of the population_, the child panicked. Now you know the child knew that what he had was only a toy, so what do you think he was actually trying to do(not what the officer claimed _he_ thought the child was trying to do)? The kid wasn’t dim-he got A’s and B’s in school, so I don’t think he thought he could shoot it out with them. On the other hand, he’s probably seen enough television and movies to know that the cops usually want you to drop whatever weapons you have immediately. If he heard things being yelled at him from the car as it was speeding up to him, don’t you think it reasonable for him to believe that that was one of the things being yelled? You pull so much out of your ass that I’ll bet you need to sit on a rubber donut to post dude. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/192 "2014-11-30T19:15:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, that is who they challenged. Unless you’re contending that there’s a different person who was seen brandishing a weapon that the police didn’t catch. The person they challenged did not match the description of who they were looking for. Could have just as easily been a bystander. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/193 "2014-11-30T19:17:53Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Plastic pellets. They are toys. Do you need a link? If you can find me a cite that says they can only fire plastic pellets, go for it. Then I’ll have another place to avoid. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, they did _not_ challenge a black man running around brandishing a weapon. You can either explain how the person shot wasn’t the person the 911 call was about, or you’re another fucking liar who knows that this was a justified shooting but can’t accept it because POOR WIDDLE CHILDREN. 12 year olds are still obliged to obey the law, and are still a threat when they have a gun. The whole idea behind these various threads is basically that the police shouldn’t have the right to defend themselves. Which is bullshit. They are armed as a matter of course precisely _because_ the nature of their work means they are more likely to need to defend themselves, it’s utterly absurd to try to remove that right. Do as you’re told and you won’t get fucking shot. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/194 "2014-11-30T19:19:05Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Plastic pellets. They are toys. Do you need a link? Why are you the loudest in threads where you know the least? It’s immaterial. Toy or not. It reasonably resembled a gun. If you are dumb enough to reach for it when a cop tells you to put your hands up, you’re headed for Darwin list fame. Blame society, we demand cops protect us, and we allow them to protect themself. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/195 "2014-11-30T19:20:55Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The person they challenged did not match the description of who they were looking for. Could have just as easily been a bystander. That’s both untrue and irrelevant. Who had been seen brandishing a gun, if not the kid they shot? And if they reasonably felt threatened - as anyone who’s not insane would by someone that they believed to be armed reaching for the weapon - it doesn’t matter if it’s the person they were after. The only thing that determines whether the killing was justified is the officer’s state of mind when he fired. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/196 "2014-11-30T19:28:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s both untrue and irrelevant. Who had been seen brandishing a gun, if not the kid they shot? And if they reasonably felt threatened - as anyone who’s not insane would by someone that they believed to be armed reaching for the weapon - it doesn’t matter if it’s the person they were after. The only thing that determines whether the killing was justified is the officer’s state of mind when he fired. They pulled up and 1-2 sec later rolled out firing. How much critical analysis do you really think they did? How sure do you think they were they had the right person, given the description they were given. I simply expect better from those we entrust with such privileges and rights LEO are given. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/197 "2014-11-30T19:29:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When did he threaten them with a gun? What do you want him to do, walk up and tell them he has a gun and wants to shoot them? Sorry, society doesn’t place such an unreasonable burden on the cops. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When did they know that he was the suspect? When they drove up, obviously. To believe otherwise is to assume that they just picked him for whatever reason and bet which of them could get off the most shots in the shortest period. Typical for your thought process, but unrealistic nonetheless. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When did they know it was a gun? You understand, of course, the report was that he was brandishing a gun. And he reached for what appeared to be a gun. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were they threatened to the point of initiating an immediate attack when he was just an unknown child with an unknown object in his waist? Which it totally relevant. Did they reasonably believe he had a gun, failed to comply with their order to put his hands up, and reached for a gun? Would a reasonable cop in a similar circumstance have felt he or his partner were in danger of harm or death? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/198 "2014-11-30T19:35:18Z")
**Czarcasm** , you seem to have become quite an expert at bobbing and weaving and equivocating when asked a question that requires you to take a stance on whether police are allowed to use force, and I think I know why. You’ve talked yourself into a corner. If you say the cops are allowed to shoot first, then you’re admitting the shooting was justified, and you don’t want to do that. If you say they aren’t, then you’re endorsing a policy that will result in cops getting killed, and you don’t want to do that either. So every time the question comes up, you find some side detail to harp on, or whine about the context, or accuse me of wanting to fellate policemen. So I’m going to make this as simple as I can; **Do police have the right to shoot first; yes, or no?** ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/199 "2014-11-30T19:39:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > **Czarcasm** , you seem to have become quite an expert at bobbing and weaving and equivocating when asked a question that requires you to take a stance on whether police are allowed to use force, and I think I know why. > > You’ve talked yourself into a corner. > > If you say the cops are allowed to shoot first, then you’re admitting the shooting was justified, and you don’t want to do that. If you say they aren’t, then you’re endorsing a policy that will result in cops getting killed, and you don’t want to do that either. So every time the question comes up, you find some side detail to harp on, or whine about the context, or accuse me of wanting to fellate policemen. > > So I’m going to make this as simple as I can; > > **Do police have the right to shoot first; yes, or no?** Not always. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The world isn’t as black and white as you’d like it to be. Less comforting, but true. You really need to get that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/200 "2014-11-30T19:40:35Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > They pulled up and 1-2 sec later rolled out firing. How much critical analysis do you really think they did? How sure do you think they were they had the right person, given the description they were given. Doesn’t matter if it was the “right person” or not, the kid that was shot was the one reaching for his weapon. But, as I’ve already asked **Czarcasm** , if Rice wasn’t the person the police were called about, who was? > [@](#): > > I simply expect better from those we entrust with such privileges and rights LEO are given. Better than what? Better than defending themselves against someone pulling a gun on them? What do you expect them to do? The reason the police _have_ guns is for situations like this. It’s not their fault that the kid’s first response to being challenged was to go for his (fake, as it turned out) weapon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=11)