# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/201 "2014-11-30T19:47:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > {…} The only thing that determines whether the killing was justified is the officer’s state of mind when he fired. No, I’m almost certain, the _reasonable [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]“man”[/DEL][/COLOR] officer_ standard applies here . . . like it, almost, always does. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/202 "2014-11-30T19:53:02Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > … > A 12 yo with a gun is dangerous because guns are dangerous… That’s it right there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/203 "2014-11-30T19:57:24Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Not always. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. So your answer is ‘yes’, then? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/204 "2014-11-30T19:58:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > … fucking … > … failure of … Tamir Rice to comply with the law and the cops So you’re too fucking dumb to notice Tamir was 12 years old? > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > … if a cop says lie down in the mud,\* lie down in the mud\*…apologies are of no use to a corpse. Are you Black? If not, just shut the fuck up about the problems they face at the hands of America’s trigger-happy police. > [@Rick](#): > > Rather than obey he reached for a realistic replica gun. Reaching for a fake gun when confronted by police with real guns requires a special kind of stupid. And another Doper too fucking stupid to notice Tamir’s age. Or is the latest in post-rational American thought that 4th-grade black children should stop studying math and history and just take classes in How to Submit to Police? > [@Morgenstern](#): > > … extremely dumb thing to do. I smell a lot of stupidity here, but it isn’t Tamir’s. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > **jayjay** , IF that had been a real gun, how long would it have taken the person reaching for it to grab it, point it and fire? 1.5 - 2 seconds? Do you believe cops have a right to defend themselves? Wow. So the cops were justified in shooting because Tamir _might_ have drawn his weapon? American police are “off the hook” and so are a lot of stupid Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/205 "2014-11-30T19:59:50Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > No, I’m almost certain, the _reasonable [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]“man”[/DEL][/COLOR] officer_ standard applies here . . . like it, almost, always does. > > CMC fnord! Yes, whether the officer’s state of mind - that is, the fear of imminent death or serious injury - was reasonable. In this case, it was. He saw someone reaching for a gun, that he had no way of knowing was fake. It’s not just reasonable to be in fear at that point, it’s unreasonable to think that someone _wouldn’t_ be. The point is, the prior actions of the police (unless they involved unprovoked violence), or Rice’s intentions, are entirely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/206 "2014-11-30T20:03:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > S > I smell a lot of stupidity here, but it isn’t Tamir’s. > > … I do too, stupid and ignorance both. But it seems to be coming from your posts mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/207 "2014-11-30T20:05:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > Wow. So the cops were justified in shooting because Tamir _might_ have drawn his weapon? Among the many things you missed is that he was reaching for his gun when he was shot. And yes, he was shot because he might have shot them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/208 "2014-11-30T20:09:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Among the many things you missed is that he was reaching for his gun when he was shot. And yes, he was shot because he might have shot them. More specifically, because it was reasonable for the police to thing he was threatening to shoot them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/209 "2014-11-30T20:27:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, whether the officer’s state of mind - that is, the fear of imminent death or serious injury - was reasonable. In this case, it was. He saw someone reaching for a gun, that he had no way of knowing was fake. It’s not just reasonable to be in fear at that point, it’s unreasonable to think that someone _wouldn’t_ be. > > The point is, the prior actions of the police (unless they involved unprovoked violence), or Rice’s intentions, are entirely irrelevant. It’s only reasonable to a mentally retarded person. It’s pretty clear that police officers are bumbling idiots who will shoot anyone just because they heard some rustling in the bushes. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/210 "2014-11-30T20:29:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > More specifically, because it was reasonable for the police to thing he was threatening to shoot them. I am not reflexively against the police. I’m not outraged by the Michael Brown shooting. (Saddened, yes). But I cannot understand how you can watch this video and not find extreme misconduct by the officers. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/211 "2014-11-30T20:56:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The kid wasn’t dim-he got A’s and B’s in school, so I don’t think he thought he could shoot it out with them. On the other hand, he’s probably seen enough television and movies to know that the cops usually want you to drop whatever weapons you have immediately. If he heard things being yelled at him from the car as it was speeding up to him, don’t you think it reasonable for him to believe that that was one of the things being yelled? That’s what I figured. He was reaching for his toy gun for the purposes of throwing it on the ground. Just like they do on TV. (Alternatively, he could have just flinched.) There’s been a lot of discussion about whether the 12 year old needs to fire first. But before that, one might consider whether he needs to point the weapon. It seems to me that _most_ of the time a kid holding a gun will probably be wielding a toy. And that an officer hiding behind cover could at least wait until the kid has a chance to act like they do on TV (throw the weapon to the ground). Also, why wasn’t the kid given first aid by the cops? Also, why is there even a market for realistically looking airsofts and fake looking colorful real guns? The consumer base must be pretty stupid and irresponsible, or possibly overwhelmed by fantasy and delusion. I can understand why the NRA would support such policies -freedom you know as well as a financial interest in mayhem- but why are their supporters so gullible? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/212 "2014-11-30T21:21:26Z")
It is better to live on your knees than die on your feet. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/213 "2014-11-30T21:26:43Z")
> **[Emiliano Zapata - Wikiquote](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata)** ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/214 "2014-11-30T22:20:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > **Czarcasm** , you seem to have become quite an expert at bobbing and weaving and equivocating when asked a question that requires you to take a stance on whether police are allowed to use force, and I think I know why. > > You’ve talked yourself into a corner. > > If you say the cops are allowed to shoot first, then you’re admitting the shooting was justified, and you don’t want to do that. If you say they aren’t, then you’re endorsing a policy that will result in cops getting killed, and you don’t want to do that either. So every time the question comes up, you find some side detail to harp on, or whine about the context, or accuse me of wanting to fellate policemen. > > So I’m going to make this as simple as I can; > > **Do police have the right to shoot first; yes, or no?** That depends-Do you live in a comic book, or do you live in the real world? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/215 "2014-11-30T22:52:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That depends-Do you live in a comic book, or do you live in the real world? Yes, or no? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/216 "2014-11-30T23:04:53Z")
[In Utah, more people are killed by cops than by gangs, drug dealers, or child abuse.](http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/217 "2014-11-30T23:19:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, or no? Do you even understand the question you are asking? edited to add: You have already been told why your question doesn’t have a “Yes or No” answer. Did you understand this response? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/218 "2014-11-30T23:27:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you even understand the question you are asking? > edited to add: You have already been told why your question doesn’t have a “Yes or No” answer. Did you understand this response? Yes, or no? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/219 "2014-11-30T23:29:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, or no? Red. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/220 "2014-11-30T23:32:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, or no? “Shades of gray” is just part of a dirty book title to you, isn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=12)