# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/21 "2014-11-28T23:21:53Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Rather than obey he reached for a realistic replica gun. Reaching for a fake gun when confronted by police with real guns requires a special kind of stupid. Because a 12-year-old is capable of making that kind of split-second decision the right way. Hell, I’m not sure I’D be able to do more than act confused in that time frame in the same situation, and I’m 43. Of course, I’m white, so my confusion wouldn’t probably be fatal. _whew!_ ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/22 "2014-11-28T23:24:19Z")
As somebody somewhere once said: Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy (alive)? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/23 "2014-11-28T23:31:10Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Rather than obey he reached for a realistic replica gun. Reaching for a fake gun when confronted by police with real guns requires a special kind of stupid. It simply is not possible to expect ANY reaction to any possible order within the time frame that he was shot. I bet that you, yourself, wouldn’t have the wherewithal to obey (or disobey) to anything that happened within the course of 1.5-2 seconds. They literally came in like a wrecking-ball. Expecting anything other than 100% compliance from another (let alone the dead 12 year old child) is mind-boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/24 "2014-11-28T23:34:49Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Rather than obey he reached for a realistic replica gun. Reaching for a fake gun when confronted by police with real guns requires a special kind of stupid. Yeah, regardless of age, gender, race or planet or origin, pulling something that resembles a gun on a cop is an extremely dumb thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/25 "2014-11-28T23:36:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Because a 12-year-old is capable of making that kind of split-second decision the right way. People keep bringing this up, and I’m not sure how it’s relevant. If the kid didn’t reach for his gun, then the cops are lying and it’s an unjustified killing. If he did reach for a gun, is it your position that the cops should have, perhaps, let him get a shot off first, because a twelve-year-olds’ gunfire isn’t fatal? If the kid’s mental state didn’t permit him the proper reaction, that’s tragic. But that’s not something the cop can assume, not when a gun is involved. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/26 "2014-11-28T23:36:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > As somebody somewhere once said: Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy (alive)? That’s the correct question to ask IF you have a reasonable expectation of the outcome being no worse than an arrest. That’s a very iffy expectation in some cases. Leaving aside the fact that two seconds isn’t really time enough to even make sense of the commands, let alone respond to them, correctly or not, for most people. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/27 "2014-11-28T23:38:56Z")
And here we go again. I’m going to have trouble keeping down my dinner with the cop-suckers chiming in. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/28 "2014-11-28T23:40:35Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > People keep bringing this up, and I’m not sure how it’s relevant. If the kid didn’t reach for his gun, then the cops are lying and it’s an unjustified killing. If he did reach for a gun, is it your position that the cops should have, perhaps, let him get a shot off first, because a twelve-year-olds’ gunfire isn’t fatal? If the kid’s mental state didn’t permit him the proper reaction, that’s tragic. But that’s not something the cop can assume, not when a gun is involved. I believe **FIRMLY** that yes, when police officers arrive on a scene, a suspect needs to be given the chance to surrender or comply with orders. Tamir never got such a chance. 1.5-2 second means that he was shot on sight (or reasonably close to shot on sight). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/29 "2014-11-28T23:41:30Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The tragedy of the two recent “suicide by cop”(de facto) episodes have resulted in a nationwide examination of how cops respond to criminal behavior. > > This seems to be way more of a problem in the US than say in Canada. > > However given the lack of any national media conversation regarding the failure of Michael Brown and Tamir Rice to comply with the law and the cops I perceive a major lost opportunity to educate America’s youth as to the propriety even necessity to behave and obey. > > As it stands, I’m afraid either the national reaction will only further exacerbate the problem of deaths at the hands of the cops. > > This is from someone who does have personal grievances against cops but I’ve never disobeyed one, having been detained dozens of times. That is how I managed to live to the age of 64 so far and why I recommend the media to focus on behavior towards cops as a solution to the problem of unfortunate shootings. Hey moron: do you think this exact, stupid argument wasn’t already made in the 2 dozen other threads that are still active on this topic? What, exactly did yoy hope to accomplish by starting thresd #25? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/30 "2014-11-28T23:42:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > It simply is not possible to expect ANY reaction to any possible order within the time frame that he was shot. > > I bet that you, yourself, wouldn’t have the wherewithal to obey (or disobey) to anything that happened within the course of 1.5-2 seconds. They literally came in like a wreaking-ball. > > Expecting anything other than 100% compliance from another (let alone the dead 12 year old child) is mind-boggling. Wait let me see if I understand you. There was not time to respond to the officer’s command, but apparently there was plenty of time to reach for an air soft gun in his waistband? Putting your hands up or not moving takes more time than reaching for your fake gun? No shit? Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/31 "2014-11-28T23:43:55Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Rather than obey he reached for a realistic replica gun. Reaching for a fake gun when confronted by police with real guns requires a special kind of stupid. My god, he was 12. ‘A special kind of stupid’ to describe a pre-teen kid? Is that what we’ve come to- that the victims (including children) are required to be more calm, show better reaction skills and better judgement that the trained professionals? For all we know he panicked and was trying to get rid of the gun so he wouldn’t get in trouble. You really think in those 2 seconds he analyzed the situation and decided reaching for the toy gun was his best choice? He was 12. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/32 "2014-11-28T23:51:45Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Wait let me see if I understand you. > There was not time to respond to the officer’s command, but apparently there was plenty of time to reach for an air soft gun in his waistband? > Putting your hands up or not moving takes more time than reaching for your fake gun? > No shit? Who knew? Simply put, he was shot before he could surrender or comply to any order. I’m fairly confident that you wouldn’t have time, **yourself** , to comply to any order within those 1.5-2 seconds. It’s just not possible for **anyone** to obey in that time frame. Are you saying that you could do it? You are walking down the street and cops blew in like this? You’d be shot before the 2 second mark. I’m confident I’d be dead. Compliance within 2 seconds is crazy. Suspects need to be given time to comply. Otherwise you are shooting people on sight. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/33 "2014-11-29T00:35:26Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Simply put, he was shot before he could surrender or comply to any order. I’m fairly confident that you wouldn’t have time, **yourself** , to comply to any order within those 1.5-2 seconds. Your point would make sense if he was shot for not putting his hands up when he was ordered to. But that’s not what the cops say occurred. He reached for a gun. Again, if that’s not accurate, then the cops lied and it’s a different story. But reaching for a gun after the cops ordered you to show your hands is not something that can be ignored because the person is twelve. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/34 "2014-11-29T00:42:10Z")
Well, as long as a cop’s safety is more important than a citizen’s right to not be shot down in the street over confusion or misunderstanding… ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/35 "2014-11-29T00:44:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Your point would make sense if he was shot for not putting his hands up when he was ordered to. But that’s not what the cops say occurred. He reached for a gun. > > Again, if that’s not accurate, then the cops lied and it’s a different story. But reaching for a gun after the cops ordered you to show your hands is not something that can be ignored because the person is twelve. Then a suspect needs the chance to whip out his weapon. A suspect needs to have **a gun** in **a hand**. A suspect needs to be given the explicit chance to disobey. **No shooting on arrival/fear**. Yes, it can make life more dangerous for cops, but that’s the risk they **must** take. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/36 "2014-11-29T00:47:54Z")
It doesn’t bother ANY of you law and order types that we’re talking about “things a citizen MUST DO in order to placate the agents of the police state”? That’s all hunky-dory as long as it’s possible to paper over it with legalities? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/37 "2014-11-29T00:48:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, as long as a cop’s safety is more important than a citizen’s right to not be shot down in the street over confusion or misunderstanding… That’s a straw man. No one (no one reasonable) is arguing that a cop gets to shoot someone over a “misunderstanding.” The kid allegedly pulled a gun. Turns out it was a toy, and the kid was twelve. That’s easy to gnash our teeth over in retrospect. But if the kid pulled a gun, his age is a tragic irrelevancy with regard to the cop’s reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/38 "2014-11-29T00:50:15Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It doesn’t bother ANY of you law and order types that we’re talking about “things a citizen MUST DO in order to placate the agents of the police state”? That’s all hunky-dory as long as it’s possible to paper over it with legalities? It doesn’t bother me, if the facts are as represented and the “must do” is “don’t reach for a gun.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/39 "2014-11-29T00:52:09Z")
Apparently, conservatism no longer recognizes the “There but for the grace of God” principle. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/40 "2014-11-29T00:55:12Z")
That’s another straw man. I feel bad for the kid, and I can picture doing something similarly stupid when I was twelve–there but for the grace of God. But if I had, and the same outcome occurred, it would still be justified for the cops to have reacted the same way, ISTM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=3)