# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/481 "2014-12-03T19:26:02Z")
> [@](#): > > That wouldn’t even work in Florida… And you know this how, exactly? Just because Zimmerman didn’t try it, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/482 "2014-12-03T19:27:24Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Holy shit, this guy sounds completely pathetic. Sounds like he’d even have trouble holding down a normal job, let alone being a cop. I take it you read the whole link? That guy had no business being a cop. I wonder if the Cleveland Police ever saw that letter? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/483 "2014-12-03T19:29:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://i60.tinypic.com/awrjif.jpg](http://i60.tinypic.com/awrjif.jpg) [http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp](http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp) Come on, snopes is day one stuff in the ignorance fighting biz . ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/484 "2014-12-03T19:30:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I take it you read the whole link? That guy had no business being a cop. I wonder if the Cleveland Police ever saw that letter? Yes, I did. Thanks for the timely link. This part is, IMHO, even more telling than the portion you quoted: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **[Cleveland.com](http://Cleveland.com)** > \*'Loehmann’s troubles began in 2012 while he attended the Cleveland Heights Police Academy. An issue with an on-again, off-again girlfriend caused Loehmann distress and, in one case, he fell asleep during training, according to a written report from Independence Police Sgt. Greg Tinnirello. > > Loehmann told Tinnirello that he cried often about his personal issue during training and Loehmann’s mother told Tinnierello that her son’ study papers “would be soaked in tears nightly for three months.”'\* I mean, seriously. I wouldn’t want that guy running 3rd shift at the 7-11. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/485 "2014-12-03T19:30:47Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > [http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp](http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp) > > Come on, snopes is day one stuff in the ignorance fighting biz . Good photoshop. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/486 "2014-12-03T19:34:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good photoshop. I can think of only one reason why you might have thought that photo was legit. Can you tell me any others? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/487 "2014-12-03T19:34:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And you know this how, exactly? Just because Zimmerman didn’t try it, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work. Because Michael [Dunn](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/) tried it and was convicted of Attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/488 "2014-12-03T19:42:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I can think of only one reason why you might have thought that photo was legit. Can you tell me any others? Most certainly! He’ll be back with an apology for posting it as well as a carefully considered explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/489 "2014-12-03T19:45:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I can think of only one reason why you might have thought that photo was legit. Can you tell me any others? Demonstrators have been punked before. [http://theredhunter.com/2005/09/](http://theredhunter.com/2005/09/) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/490 "2014-12-03T19:59:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or by an eyewitness account. Er, there is eyewitness evidence of it, that’s where we get the account from. That you choose to disregard the police’s statement doesn’t mean it no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/491 "2014-12-03T20:04:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Er, there is eyewitness evidence of it, that’s where we get the account from. That you choose to disregard the police’s statement doesn’t mean it no longer exists. The officer’s account seems to contradict the video. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/492 "2014-12-03T20:01:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or by an eyewitness account. Shit! I forgot to provide [the eyewitness link!](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-talked-to-clevelanders-about-12-year-old-tamir-rices-death-at-the-hands-of-police-1201) There were no shouts. There were no warnings. There were no other people sitting at the table with the child at any time. Officer Loehmann, who internal police records show has a habit of lying on his reports, has lied yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/493 "2014-12-03T20:06:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m really worried how much mindset is becoming an iron-clad defense. Stand Your Ground laws have only exacerbated the situation. > > Want to commit murder, and get clean away with it? Get a concealed carry permit. Figure some way to get the prospective victim really pissed, pissed enough to move on you. Kill him. Self-defense. “I was in reasonable fear for my life, or severe bodily injury…” And only you can testify to your mindset. > > Works even better if you are a cop. Don’t have to prove diddly, just announce that you were afraid, a reasonable fear for your life. Given the tendency of American juries to sympathize with cops, you’re gonna walk. Your victim is a minority? With a history of petty crime or drug charges? They’ll carry you out on their shoulders and buy you drinks. > > Stinks. Stinks _bad!_ If the fear is reasonable - that is you were in fact attacked by your target, then yeah, it’s legitimate. Because, you know, said target always - absolutely always - has the option of not attacking or threatening you. Yes, it sucks. It sucks that so many people are violent arseholes. But that’s no reason to make it worse by making it harder for people to defend themselves against said violent people. And that’s what you want to do. You want to take someone who’s been threatened with loss of life, or serious injury, had the trauma of having to kill to defend themselves, and you want to take this innocent person - this innocent _victim_ of violent crime - and accuse them of murder, without cause, and subject them to an unwarranted trial, because it’s hypothetically possible that someone could manipulate the system. Accusing people who kill in self defence of a crime is victim blaming bullshit, nothing more, nothing less. Fuck that. It’s _never_ appropriate. Oh, and someone who reaches for a gun when the police tell them to freeze? Not a victim, except possibly of their own stupidity. It’s still a tragedy - pretty much all untimely deaths are - but not all tragedies require someone to blame. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/494 "2014-12-03T20:07:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Shit! I forgot to provide [the eyewitness link!](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-talked-to-clevelanders-about-12-year-old-tamir-rices-death-at-the-hands-of-police-1201) There were no shouts. There were no warnings. There were no other people sitting at the table with the child at any time. Officer Loehmann, who internal police records show has a habit of lying on his reports, has lied yet again. I assumed you were talking about the police report, I’ll read this and see what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/495 "2014-12-03T20:09:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I assumed you were talking about the police report, I’ll read this and see what I think. Did you read the report from the Independence Police about Officer Loehmann? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/496 "2014-12-03T20:10:55Z")
Just in case it hasn’t been firmly enough established from the dubious police reports in Rice’s case that Loehmann is untrustworthy: [“Loehmann eventually admitted to lying.”](http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/497 "2014-12-03T20:18:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you read the report from the Independence Police about Officer Loehmann? I did. It may suggest that the police force was negligent in employing him, it depends if he’s been tested in the two years since then and improved, It has no direct bearing on the case at hand. Reading the other link you provided, we have a witness who admits they refused to give a statement to the police, which to me suggests they’re not particularly willing to stand by their story, and also a retired police officer who finds the police’s behaviour reasonable. Based on that, I’m not changing my view that there’s no reason to conclude that the killing was unjustified. If the witness is prepared to stand by his statement and report it to the police, there would potentially be grounds for a charge, but if not, then nothing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/498 "2014-12-03T20:20:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Off-topic Photoshopped racist garbage. > Why am I not surprised? And in a thread about an innocent child that has nothing to do with Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/499 "2014-12-03T20:25:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Reading the other link you provided, we have a witness who admits they refused to give a statement to the police, Maybe the witness has a fear of developing lead toxicity. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/500 "2014-12-03T20:29:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Shit! I forgot to provide [the eyewitness link!](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-talked-to-clevelanders-about-12-year-old-tamir-rices-death-at-the-hands-of-police-1201) Yes, but the witness was black. His version of events are worthless in the minds of anyone defending the cops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=26)