# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/521 "2014-12-04T00:34:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > In this country, Steophan, if you want to claim you killed someone in self defense you have to actually mount an [affirmative defense](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense). You can’t just sit back and say “prove I didn’t kill him in self defense”. Depends on the state. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/522 "2014-12-04T06:24:26Z")
Sure, in Texas you can shoot him for looking at you cross-eyed and breaking wind. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/523 "2014-12-04T07:09:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s irrelevant to whether the killing was justified, all that matters is the officer’s state of mind when he fired… > > That’s irrelevant to whether the killing was justified, all that matters is the officer’s state of mind when he fired… A kid playing with a toy is dead because police – one of whom turns out to be a lying incompetent – knowably created a situation where they would “need” to kill him. Are you a lawyer, **Steophan**? It sounds like you’re only concenred with whether a jury could be persuaded to acquit. I’m not a lawyer and feel that, as with Zimmerman, culpable manslaughter occurred regardless of the letter of any law. And anyone who disagrees with me on this point is a {stupid, racist, asshole} (pick any two 🆒). > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Because Michael [Dunn](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/) tried it and was convicted of Attempted murder. A man who _ **murdered** _ an innocent black kid in cold blood for no other reason than that his music was too loud is convicted of _attempted_ murder – and you use this as evidence that the U.S. justice system is working. Wow! (Or was yours some sort of satire?) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/524 "2014-12-04T07:26:53Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > The cop isn’t “innocent.” The fact that he shot the kid is not in dispute. > The question is whether or not his actions are justified; putting that burden of proof on the killer is absolutely correct. > > You can believe that the actions were justified, but the cop should have to prove it. Do you understand that killing someone in justified self defence isn’t a crime? If it was self defence, and there’s no reason as yet to think otherwise, then no crime was committed. It should never be the job of the defendant to prove innocence, it should always be the job of the prosecution to prove guilt. What’s happening here is that people are taking an exceptionally tragic incident, and trying to use it to argue against what should be basic rights - that is, the right to defend oneself, and the right to due process. If those rights are to mean anything, they have to apply to everyone, even in circumstances you dislike. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/525 "2014-12-04T07:49:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure, in Texas you can shoot him for looking at you cross-eyed and breaking wind. And snoring… don’t forget snoring. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/526 "2014-12-04T08:09:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Do you understand that killing someone in justified self defence isn’t a crime? If it was self defence, and there’s no reason as yet to think otherwise, then no crime was committed. It should never be the job of the defendant to prove innocence, it should always be the job of the prosecution to prove guilt. But self-defense when you’re the one starting the fight\* isn’t justified\*. If I start shooting at you, and you draw a gun on me in return, I can’t claim self-defense if I shoot you. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/527 "2014-12-04T08:32:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good photoshop. The photo manipulator mostly grabbed letters from the rest of the sign. I perceived artifacts as well. It wasn’t that great a fabrication. I think it’s fair to say the work expresses racial animosity as well as libelous sentiment. You know someone’s in trouble when they have to, well, lie or intentionally misrepresent the arguments of their opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/528 "2014-12-04T08:39:11Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > This isn’t about good guy verses bad guy. This is about two cops who where grossly negligent. They might very well be good guys, but when you’re grossly negligent like that, it doesn’t mean your feet shouldn’t be held to the fire just because you’re a good guy. The cops aren’t the ones whose behavior is in question here. > [@](#): > > Now, do you think we should just pat this guy on the back and say to him: “Don’t worry buddy, we all make mistakes, just shake this one off and we’ll all forget this ever happened.”? > > Or would it make more sense to hold this guy accountable for what he did? He should be held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/529 "2014-12-04T09:25:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The cops aren’t the ones whose behavior is in question here. What?? The cop’s behavior most certainly IS in question, why would you think otherwise? That’s what this whole threads is about. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/530 "2014-12-04T10:18:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What’s happening here is that people are taking an exceptionally tragic incident, and trying to use it to argue against what should be basic rights - that is, the right to defend oneself, and the right to due process. If those rights are to mean anything, they have to apply to everyone, even in circumstances you dislike. By this “reasoning” (if it doesn’t offend to apply such a term to gibberish) anyone with a gun permit could race up, with gun drawn and aimed, to any armed citizen and, if that citizen didn’t raise his hands, shoot and kill and claim self-defence. One might have to find some bullshit excuse for the drawn gun (“I thought I recognized his face from a Wanted poster”), but it sounds like **Steophan** could help them out there. Yes I noticed the murderers were cops but (a) your “reasoning” doesn’t depend on that and (b) I’d liked to think we hold cops to a higher, not lower, standard. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/531 "2014-12-04T10:28:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But self-defense when you’re the one starting the fight\* isn’t justified\*. If I start shooting at you, and you draw a gun on me in return, I can’t claim self-defense if I shoot you. That’s correct. Not sure what it has to do with obeying the cops, the Tamir Rice case, or anything I’ve said, but it is indeed correct. > [@septimus](#): > > By this “reasoning” (if it doesn’t offend to apply such a term to gibberish) anyone with a gun permit could race up, with gun drawn and aimed, to any armed citizen and, if that citizen didn’t raise his hands, shoot and kill and claim self-defence. One might have to find some bullshit excuse for the drawn gun (“I thought I recognized his face from a Wanted poster”), but it sounds like **Steophan** could help them out there. > > Yes I noticed the murderers were cops but (a) your “reasoning” doesn’t depend on that and (b) I’d liked to think we hold cops to a higher, not lower, standard. No. No-one but a policeman has the right to run up to anyone with a gun drawn and aimed. Ordinary people aren’t allowed to threaten others. What makes you think that “his face was on a wanted poster” would suggest imminent danger, anyway? And in terms of when they can defend themselves, I expect the police to be held to the same standards as anybody else. Not higher, not lower. The only difference as regards this case is that the police are entitled to approach with drawn weapons, unlike the general public. The sole purpose of allowing them to do that is so they can defend themselves or others. Not something I would wish to see them prevented from doing, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/532 "2014-12-04T10:42:45Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > What?? The cop’s behavior most certainly IS in question, why would you think otherwise? That’s what this whole threads is about. Pre-hijack, the thread was supposed to be about just obeying the law. Do you think this kid would still have been shot if he hadn’t been brandishing a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/533 "2014-12-04T10:55:16Z")
Okay, then, what’s the action threshold on the part of a criminal (or a law abiding person some random person thinks is a criminal) where the cops are allowed to stop thinking about preserving his or her life? I mean, even spree killers have been taken in alive, so it has to be possible, right? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/534 "2014-12-04T10:58:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But self-defense when you’re the one starting the fight\* isn’t justified\*. If I start shooting at you, and you draw a gun on me in return, I can’t claim self-defense if I shoot you. Again, we may need to note an exception for Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/535 "2014-12-04T11:28:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Pre-hijack, the thread was supposed to be about just obeying the law. > > Do you think this kid would still have been shot if he hadn’t been brandishing a weapon? He wasn’t brandishing jack shit when he was gunned down. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/536 "2014-12-04T11:42:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s correct. Not sure what it has to do with obeying the cops, the Tamir Rice case, or anything I’ve said, but it is indeed correct. The cops initiated violence in a peaceful situation. They can’t pick a fight and then claim self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/537 "2014-12-04T12:57:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The cops initiated violence in a peaceful situation. They can’t pick a fight and then claim self-defense. A report that someone’s waving a gun around is not a peaceful situation. The police going in with guns drawn and ordering someone to freeze isn’t “picking a fight”… It’s the police doing their job. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/538 "2014-12-04T13:00:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A report that someone’s waving a gun around is not a peaceful situation. The police going in with guns drawn and ordering someone to freeze isn’t “picking a fight”… It’s the police doing their job. When did they order someone to freeze? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/539 "2014-12-04T13:01:57Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Okay, then, what’s the action threshold on the part of a criminal (or a law abiding person some random person thinks is a criminal) where the cops are allowed to stop thinking about preserving his or her life? The point at which the suspect resists arrest. Once they’ve indicated they have no intent of going peacefully, the police have every right to use whatever amount of force they deem necessary to neutralize a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/540 "2014-12-04T13:03:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He wasn’t brandishing jack shit when he was gunned down. So the 911 caller was making stuff up? Was a weapon brandished or not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=28)