# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/541 "2014-12-04T13:08:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The cops aren’t the ones whose behavior is in question here. You should really just make this your sig line. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/542 "2014-12-04T13:26:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the 911 caller was making stuff up? Was a weapon brandished or not? Is English your third language? When they rushed him, his hands were _empty_. There is eyewitness testimony that they didn’t yell _anything_ before they shot him, and both eyewitness testimony and surveillance camera evidence showing that they outright lied when they initially said he was sitting at the table with other people. Quit trying to change the story to make yourself feel better, **Smapti** -What _they_ reported they said was not a one syllable “Freeze!”. It was “Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up!” When did the police say this, **Smapti**? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/543 "2014-12-04T13:41:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A report that someone’s waving a gun around is not a peaceful situation. The police going in with guns drawn and ordering someone to freeze isn’t “picking a fight”… It’s the police doing their job. Last summer I did a stint in reserve duty as an “operations sergeant” - basically a dispatcher - in an infantry battalion serving in the West Bank. If someone called me up and told me they saw a Palestinian waving an AK-47 around, I’d send a patrol over and tell them to _investigate and verify the report_, and if the report was found to be accurate, to attempt to resolve the matter without violence. I certainty wouldn’t expect them to storm into town with their machine guns blazing. Let me repeat that: the actions of the Cleveland Police seemed rash and excessive \* to an Israeli soldier serving in the Occupied Territories.\* Consider the implications of that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/544 "2014-12-04T13:52:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Let me repeat that: the actions of the Cleveland Police seemed rash and excessive \* to an Israeli soldier serving in the Occupied Territories.\* Consider the implications of that statement. Woah! Asking an authoritarian conservative to choose between a police officer and a member of the military? It’s downright cruel to force a Sophie’s choice like that on someone. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/545 "2014-12-04T13:55:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Let me repeat that: the actions of the Cleveland Police seemed rash and excessive \* to an Israeli soldier serving in the Occupied Territories.\* Consider the implications of that statement. Whoa. ETA: Whoa or Woah? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/546 "2014-12-04T14:00:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Last summer I did a stint in reserve duty as an “operations sergeant” - basically a dispatcher - in an infantry battalion serving in the West Bank. If someone called me up and told me they saw a Palestinian waving an AK-47 around, I’d send a patrol over and tell them to _investigate and verify the report_, and if the report was found to be accurate, to attempt to resolve the matter without violence. I certainty wouldn’t expect them to storm into town with their machine guns blazing. > > Let me repeat that: the actions of the Cleveland Police seemed rash and excessive \* to an Israeli soldier serving in the Occupied Territories.\* Consider the implications of that statement. The idea that someone who’s job it is to literally blow up the houses of innocent civilians, regardless of whether they’re occupied, can criticise anyone else’s view on justified violence is laughable. As is the idea that the Israeli army understands the concept of restraint or human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/547 "2014-12-04T14:00:45Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Whoa. > > ETA: Whoa or Woah? Woe! I meant whoa. Please excuse my typewo. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/548 "2014-12-04T14:02:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The idea that someone who’s job it is to literally blow up the houses of innocent civilians, regardless of whether they’re occupied, can criticise anyone else’s view on justified violence is laughable. As is the idea that the Israeli army understands the concept of restraint or human rights. There’s the easy out to the dissonance! Discount faster than Crazy Al’s Electronics! ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/549 "2014-12-04T15:03:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sonovabitch!:smack: An African-American witnesses police shoot down a 12 year old African-American child without warning, sees other cops arrive and do nothing that indicates that they find fault with the situation, and you wonder why he doesn’t go up to them?? When they release a report full of lies, you wonder why he talks to the press instead of walking into that police station to give a report?? Please tell me you take those blinders off before you drive home from work. Much respect to you (not to exclude other contributions), in approaching this thread. It’s absolutely astounding what lengths people will go to, to deny or justify this stuff. This is also why I remained skeptical about the idea of body cameras. We _already_ have multiple videos of such events (and not just now, but dating back over decades), and people still play this game where they parse and pick details in order to justify misconduct or murder. Apparently, if you don’t stand on one leg, touch your nose, and spin at the end of a tap dance sequence, it’s grounds to be killed. Just fucking dance and you’ll live. Again, much respect for putting the energy into it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/550 "2014-12-04T15:14:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Woe! I meant whoa. Please excuse my typewo. I thought that was a _damn_ fine Christopher Walken imitation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/551 "2014-12-04T15:15:03Z")
No-one’s attempting to justify murder, rather the exact opposite. We’re pointing out that it’s not murder unless and until someone proves it’s not justified. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/552 "2014-12-04T15:36:58Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > … German police **[discharged](http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-police-used-only-85-bullets-against-people-2011/52162/)** 85 bullets in 2011, 49 being warning shots and 6 being fatal. German efficiency. This 6/85 = 7% kill rate would make American cops envious. It becomes 17% when warning shots are ignored, which might be a fairer comparison. Do American cops waste bullets for warning? Are American cops trained to fire until their weapons are empty? [QUOTE=[We Talked to People Who Knew 12-Year-Old Tamir Rice About His Death at the Hands of Cleveland Cops](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-talked-to-clevelanders-about-12-year-old-tamir-rices-death-at-the-hands-of-police-1201)] Of course, it’s well known to Clevelanders that their cops don’t exactly walk on water. In 2012, at the end of a chase, police—including one who stood on the hood of the car, shooting through the windshield— ​fired 137 bullets into the vehicle of two passengers, Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams. [/QUOTE] 137 isn’t a round number. Did they retain some extra ammunition in case a 12-year old showed up with a toy? Yes, I sound bitter. It baffles me that any American could _not_ be. ETA: > [@Steophan](#): > > No-one’s attempting to justify murder, rather the exact opposite. **Steophan**? In the example do you think the cops could have asked Russell and Williams, after the 100th bullet, if they wanted to surrender yet? Maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/553 "2014-12-04T16:39:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is English your third language? When they rushed him, his hands were _empty_. There is eyewitness testimony that they didn’t yell _anything_ before they shot him, and both eyewitness testimony and surveillance camera evidence showing that they outright lied when they initially said he was sitting at the table with other people. Quit trying to change the story to make yourself feel better, **Smapti** -What _they_ reported they said was not a one syllable “Freeze!”. It was “Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up!” When did the police say this, **Smapti**? And why did the police do any of that? What was it that motivated them to engage this person? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/554 "2014-12-04T16:45:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And why did the police do any of that? What was it that motivated them to engage this person? Maybe the same thing that motivated their fellow police officers into firing 137 bullets into a vehicle driven by two unarmed people earlier that year? What motivates _you_ into defending these lying murderers? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/555 "2014-12-04T16:46:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And why did the police do any of that? What was it that motivated them to engage this person? Bravado, stupidity, fear, laziness - take your pick. Probably a mixture of all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/556 "2014-12-04T16:48:57Z")
Hey, **Smapti** -What motivated those two cops into not rendering first aid to that dying child? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/557 "2014-12-04T17:31:56Z")
This 1 1/2 to 2 seconds bullshit is astoundingly stupid. [There’s an officer who always gives 20 seconds to people in similar situations.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acdABwYJqks) Any kid could’ve ran away in that time span. 😃 But, in all seriousness, fuck these dumb cops. They completely overreacted and murdered this kid. Maybe they weren’t up to the job in the first place. This is why dealing with cops is always a crap shoot-- you might get the trigger-happy high-school dropout who’s dispatched to your rescue. Not the Andy Griffith type guy you were expecting. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/558 "2014-12-04T17:43:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hey, **Smapti** -What motivated those two cops into not rendering first aid to that dying child? The cops had no idea there was a video. Maybe they were eliminating the “only” witness to their fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/559 "2014-12-04T17:44:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Last summer I did a stint in reserve duty as an “operations sergeant” - basically a dispatcher - in an infantry battalion serving in the West Bank. If someone called me up and told me they saw a Palestinian waving an AK-47 around, I’d send a patrol over and tell them to _investigate and verify the report_, and if the report was found to be accurate, to attempt to resolve the matter without violence. I certainty wouldn’t expect them to storm into town with their machine guns blazing. > > Let me repeat that: the actions of the Cleveland Police seemed rash and excessive \* to an Israeli soldier serving in the Occupied Territories.\* Consider the implications of that statement. I’d like to quote this on my FB page. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/560 "2014-12-04T18:06:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe the same thing that motivated their fellow police officers into firing 137 bullets into a vehicle driven by two unarmed people earlier that year? What motivates _you_ into defending these lying murderers? My God, you’re an expert at avoiding answering questions if you realize that doing so would imply that the victim was _in the slightest way responsible_ for their fate. Why were the police in that place at that time, and why did they choose to engage that child instead of just continuing to drive? Did the kid take any actions, at any point whatsoever, that merited police attention? Or did the cops just see a black kid and decide to wager five bucks on who could shoot him first? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=29)