# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/561 "2014-12-04T18:08:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hey, **Smapti** -What motivated those two cops into not rendering first aid to that dying child? Are they properly trained to treat gunshot wounds, and is there any legal or professional requirement that they do so? ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/562 "2014-12-04T18:09:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one’s attempting to justify murder, rather the exact opposite. We’re pointing out that it’s not murder unless and until someone proves it’s not justified. I never considered it murder, but instead that the final actions and particularly the last volley of what were fatal shots brought it to the level of at minimum manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/563 "2014-12-04T18:13:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one’s attempting to justify murder, rather the exact opposite. We’re pointing out that it’s not murder unless and until someone proves it’s not justified. This is not the case, as I said before. The prosecution does NOT have the burden of proving a killing was not self defense. A self defense justification is an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof is on the defense. You are quite simply wrong about this, as a matter of law. Wrong, wrong, wrong. So please stop saying it. Or maybe you’re just saying that this is how you think things should be? If so, you should be clearer, because legally you’re wrong. When you claim self defense, it’s also not enough to merely state that you believed your life was in danger. Your belief has to be reasonable. You can’t shoot someone just because they have a gun, and you’re scared of people with guns. You have to have a reasonable belief that your life, or someone else’s life, is in immanent danger. It really is amazing that in a case where a cop just shoots the fuck out of a 12 year old kid, on video, and yet we have the people totally ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and instead repeating over and over again the statements by the cops, even though those statements blatantly contradict the video evidence. It’s like they can’t even see the video–it plays, but the second the video stops they can’t remember it. It’s fucking depressing, because apparently even video evidence isn’t enough. Even if every cop had a body camera, apparently all it takes is for a killer cop to SAY the victim reached for his waistband and the video evidence doesn’t matter any more. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/564 "2014-12-04T18:16:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Are they properly trained to treat gunshot wounds, and is there any legal or professional requirement that they do so? You’d think etiquette would require at least considering trying to staunch the bleeding. Then, of course, they’d have been caught red handed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/565 "2014-12-04T18:18:34Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I’d like to quote this on my FB page. Sure, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/566 "2014-12-04T18:31:26Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > You’d think etiquette would require at least considering trying to staunch the bleeding. If they weren’t trained how to properly treat a gunshot wound, then at best any help they gave would have been accidental and minimal, and at worst (and much more likely) they could have made the situation worse through their ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/567 "2014-12-04T18:45:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they weren’t trained how to properly treat a gunshot wound, then at best any help they gave would have been accidental and minimal, and at worst (and much more likely) they could have made the situation worse through their ignorance. They could have made him even more dead! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/568 "2014-12-04T18:56:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Are they properly trained to treat gunshot wounds, and is there any legal or professional requirement that they do so? Are you _seriously_ asking if those police officers were trained in how to at least superficially treat a gunshot wound? edited to add: That is one strong river of stupid you’re swimming in. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/569 "2014-12-04T19:05:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they weren’t trained how to properly treat a gunshot wound, then at best any help they gave would have been accidental and minimal, and at worst (and much more likely) they could have made the situation worse through their ignorance. [The Ottawa Police](http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/careers-and-opportunities/FAQs.asp)require CPR and First Aide certification prior to hiring. As front line public servants I would have expected the same level of competency in the US. Honestly though, I think they were more worried about how to save their own skins then how to keep the kid from dying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/570 "2014-12-04T19:12:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you _seriously_ asking if those police officers were trained in how to at least superficially treat a gunshot wound? Yes, I am. Can you provide evidence that training in emergency treatment of gunshot wounds is part of an officer’s training in the city of Cleveland? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/571 "2014-12-04T19:13:40Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > They could have made him even more dead! Just as cops are not telepaths, they are not prophets either - they had no way of knowing the wound was fatal at that time, so if they weren’t trained in treating a gunshot wound, then for all they knew they would only make it worse by attempting to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/572 "2014-12-04T19:18:10Z")
All police in the U.S. have to take first aid training and even carry a gunshot wound first aid kit in patrol cars. [Here’s an article that talks about Cleveland police training.](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/cops-who-shot-tamir-rice-didnt-give-first-aid.html) > [@](#): > > The news station found that Cleveland police officers take the American Red Cross HeartSaver course, which teaches them how to respond to “injury emergencies.” “In other words,” said reporter Sarah Buduson, “officers should know the basics about treating gunshot wounds.” Tomba said he didn’t know why Loehmann and Garmback didn’t bother to use their training in this case. They didn’t try and fail, they didn’t make him bleed out quicker, they hid behind the freaking car while the kid is laying in the snow (no longer a “threat”). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/573 "2014-12-04T19:22:37Z")
Well, that’s a start. However, I’m looking at the website for [HeartSaver](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CorporateTraining/HeartsaverCourses/Heartsaver-Courses_UCM_001295_SubHomePage.jsp#) (which the article appears to misidentify - it’s sponsored by the American Heart Association, not by the American Red Cross) right now and I don’t see anything that would explicitly cover treatment of gunshot wounds. There appears to be instruction on how to treat bleeding, but there’s a lot more than just bleeding going on in a gunshot injury that I see no indication of being covered here. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/574 "2014-12-04T19:24:00Z")
Oh good lord, dial back the stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/575 "2014-12-04T19:27:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, that’s a start. > > However, I’m looking at the website for [HeartSaver](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CorporateTraining/HeartsaverCourses/Heartsaver-Courses_UCM_001295_SubHomePage.jsp#) (which the article appears to misidentify - it’s sponsored by the American Heart Association, not by the American Red Cross) right now and I don’t see anything that would explicitly cover treatment of gunshot wounds. There appears to be instruction on how to treat bleeding, but there’s a lot more than just bleeding going on in a gunshot injury that I see no indication of being covered here. So what do you think would have happened if they had encountered a _real_ threat, like an adult with a real gun, and one of the officers had been shot? Do you suppose the other officer would have just left the first aid kit in the car and waited there with his thumb stuck up his ass for four or five minutes until someone else arrived? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/576 "2014-12-04T19:29:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, that’s a start. > > However, I’m looking at the website for [HeartSaver](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CorporateTraining/HeartsaverCourses/Heartsaver-Courses_UCM_001295_SubHomePage.jsp#) (which the article appears to misidentify - it’s sponsored by the American Heart Association, not by the American Red Cross) right now and I don’t see anything that would explicitly cover treatment of gunshot wounds. There appears to be instruction on how to treat bleeding, but there’s a lot more than just bleeding going on in a gunshot injury that I see no indication of being covered here. Ah. You see it’s covered under “basic human decency”. The certificate is usually easy to get but involves a having a brain so I can understand how all this might be baffling you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/577 "2014-12-04T19:30:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what do you think would have happened if they had encountered a _real_ threat, like an adult with a real gun, and one of the officers had been shot? Do you suppose the other officer would have just left the first aid kit in the car and waited there with his thumb stuck up his ass for four or five minutes until someone else arrived? I don’t know, but if he screwed up and his partner died as a result of his messing with something he wasn’t trained to mess with, I bet you’d want him indicted for that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/578 "2014-12-04T19:31:02Z")
Yep. If his buddy had been shot, the other cop would have just sat there with a confused look on his face and let him bleed. Wouldn’t want to make things worse, you know. Jesus fucking hell. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/579 "2014-12-04T19:31:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, that’s a start. > > However, I’m looking at the website for [HeartSaver](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CorporateTraining/HeartsaverCourses/Heartsaver-Courses_UCM_001295_SubHomePage.jsp#) (which the article appears to misidentify - it’s sponsored by the American Heart Association, not by the American Red Cross) right now and I don’t see anything that would explicitly cover treatment of gunshot wounds. There appears to be instruction on how to treat bleeding, but there’s a lot more than just bleeding going on in a gunshot injury that I see no indication of being covered here. The brief description says: “Heartsaver CPR & AED course is designed to provide a wide variety of community members, child care providers and professionals the ability to recognize life-threatening emergencies, provide CPR, use and AED, relieve choking in a safe, timely and effective manner.” Your site doesn’t list all the courses, of course. But do you really think any officer of the law who is issued a gun is not taught or required to assist in treating a gunshot wound? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/580 "2014-12-04T19:32:12Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Ah. You see it’s covered under “basic human decency”. The certificate is usually easy to get but involves a having a brain so I can understand how all this might be baffling you. “Basic human decency” includes knowing when not to “help”. I’m first-aid certified, and if someone in my vicinity gets shot, I know for a fact that the best thing I can do for them is call 911 and not go trying to work miracles on them myself with a couple of gauze pads and some alcohol wipes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=30)