# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/581 "2014-12-04T19:33:15Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Your site doesn’t list all the courses, of course. But do you really think any officer of the law who is issued a gun is not taught or required to assist in treating a gunshot wound? Do you have evidence that they are? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/582 "2014-12-04T19:36:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Basic human decency” includes knowing when not to “help”. I’m first-aid certified, and if someone in my vicinity gets shot, I know for a fact that the best thing I can do for them is call 911 and not go trying to work miracles on them myself with a couple of gauze pads and some alcohol wipes. You are a sniveling mongrel. A soft headed jackass with a hollow chest. I’m waiting for you to try and excuse this part by saying the officer feared for his life because he heard gun shots. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/583 "2014-12-04T19:38:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Basic human decency” includes knowing when not to “help”. I’m first-aid certified, and if someone in my vicinity gets shot, I know for a fact that the best thing I can do for them is call 911 and not go trying to work miracles on them myself with a couple of gauze pads and some alcohol wipes. Is that what the officers did? Did they immediately call for an ambulance? Did they immediately call for advice on what to do to stop a child from dying? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/584 "2014-12-04T19:40:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is that what the officers did? Did they immediately call for an ambulance? Did they immediately call for advice on what to do to stop a child from dying? One presumes that the detective and FBI agent who arrived four minutes later were not summoned by the Bat-Signal. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/585 "2014-12-04T19:40:52Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh good lord, dial back the stupid. Knob must be broken. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/586 "2014-12-04T19:50:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > You are a sniveling mongrel. A soft headed jackass with a hollow chest. Yes, I’m a “soft headed jackass” for not wanting to try to treat a gunshot patient with rudimentary tools and basic knowledge of how to stop bleeding. I mean, it’s not as if a gunshot patient ever died not because of the initial insult, but because of incompetent attempts at treating the wound by people who didn’t know what they were doing. Well, except for the time that [that happened to the President of the United States.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_James_A._Garfield#Garfield.27s_suffering_and_death) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/587 "2014-12-04T19:56:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > One presumes that the detective and FBI agent who arrived four minutes later were not summoned by the Bat-Signal. Do you think the Cleveland Police sent an FBI Agent out on a first aid run in response to a call from one of the officers? The Fibbie was already in the general area because of the initial report of a black man with a gun in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/588 "2014-12-04T19:59:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Just as cops are not telepaths, they are not prophets either - they had no way of knowing the wound was fatal at that time, so if they weren’t trained in treating a gunshot wound, then for all they knew they would only make it worse by attempting to do so. I just wanted you to know that if you are trolling then you are a brilliant, brilliant troll. And if you’re not trolling, then I would genuinely and honestly love to meet you in person; I would love to look in your eyes while I talked to you. Would you look different than someone with a soul? You fascinate me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/589 "2014-12-04T20:13:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Are they properly trained to treat gunshot wounds, and is there any legal or professional requirement that they do so? There’s certainly a moral requirement to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/590 "2014-12-04T20:14:51Z")
[Cinncinati Police Department Procedures](http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/permits-auctions-references/police-department-procedure-manual/) [Cleveland Police Department Procedures](http://www.fop8.org/publicfiles/gpo_prt4_prt6/gpobookcomplete.pdf) Nothing I read was informative to this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/591 "2014-12-04T20:34:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Just as cops are not telepaths, they are not prophets either - they had no way of knowing the wound was fatal at that time, so if they weren’t trained in treating a gunshot wound, then for all they knew they would only make it worse by attempting to do so. It doesn’t matter what type of wound it is. If someone is bleeding, you try to stop the bleeding. It doesn’t matter if they were stabbed, shot, or gored by a moose… you try to staunch the bleeding until the ambulance arrives. I don’t think anyone here believes that the officers should have tried to fully treat a gunshot wound, but they should have at least attempted basic first aid. ETA: I’m going to add first aid to the list of things your probably shouldn’t talk about unless you are asking a question. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/592 "2014-12-04T21:08:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > {…} And in terms of when they can defend themselves, I expect the police to be held to the same standards as anybody else. Not higher, not lower. The only difference as regards this case is that the police are entitled to approach with drawn weapons, unlike the general public. {…} Because the police are entitled to approach with drawn weapons and use them, some of do actually believe that they should be held to a higher standard. We even have a name for it, the [“reasonable officer” standard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person#Armed_professionals). And some of us are still believe that an _affirmative defense_ needs to be proved by the defendant, not disproved by the prosecution. The way it’s been for hundreds of years under _Common Law_. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/593 "2014-12-04T21:23:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, I am. Can you provide evidence that training in emergency treatment of gunshot wounds is part of an officer’s training in the city of Cleveland? Can we provide evidence that officers are smarter than a twelve year old with a toy gun? Because at least we know that kid didn’t kill anyone because he felt threatened by a kid with a toy gun. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Knob must be broken. It’s clearly been smashed a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/594 "2014-12-04T21:31:17Z")
The whole concept of an affirmative defence is immoral. Expecting people to have to prove their innocence is disgusting. Fortunately, video evidence of someone reaching for what appears to be a gun will allow the officers to do that, but it’s still unacceptable that they should have to do so. Hopefully the trend of removing this burden will continue. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/595 "2014-12-04T21:44:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Can we provide evidence that officers are smarter than a twelve year old with a toy gun? I would _like_ to… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/596 "2014-12-04T21:45:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The whole concept of an affirmative defence is immoral. Expecting people to have to prove their innocence is disgusting. > > Fortunately, video evidence of someone reaching for what appears to be a gun will allow the officers to do that, but it’s still unacceptable that they should have to do so. Hopefully the trend of removing this burden will continue. You’re either seeing things that aren’t there, or you are lying through your fucking teeth. If the police said in their report that what he was reaching for was a crowbar, I bet you would claim that, clear as day, you could see “Craftsman” stamped on the side. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/597 "2014-12-04T21:57:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The whole concept of an affirmative defence is immoral. Expecting people to have to prove their innocence is disgusting. Er, immoral? This sort of thinking betrays a basic refusal to understand the law. Imagine that I’ve accused you of doing X and and present testimony and possibly (but not necessarily) other evidence, including possibly conflicting evidence, to establish probable cause to believe you did X. You’re free not to defend yourself and argue otherwise. In the Brown case, for instance, there was sufficient evidence to establish probable cause (even if conflicting evidence) to conclude that Wilson engaged in (at bare minimum) involuntary manslaughter. The GJ chose to in effect declare this wasn’t so, as it’s free to do (just as a prosecutor is always free despite the evidence to refuse to charge someone). Had Wilson been indicted, at trial think of the evidence presented as bricks on one side of a scale. You can leave the bricks put down by the state as unopposed/uncountered and simply argue that the facts as presented as compared to the law means the person must be found not guilty or that it has been “not proved” that the law was violated, or you can present argument and evidence that, for instance, the actions were in self-defense. How is that process “disgusting”? This isn’t so very complicated, and it certainly isn’t objectively “disgusting”. You might want to explain how you’d expect or desire the process to work if someone (law enforcement or other) killed a loved one or friend of yours where the circumstances amounted to at minimum involuntary manslaughter/criminal negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/598 "2014-12-04T22:01:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The whole concept of an affirmative defence is immoral. Expecting people to have to prove their innocence is disgusting. > > Fortunately, video evidence of someone reaching for what appears to be a gun will allow the officers to do that, but it’s still unacceptable that they should have to do so. Hopefully the trend of removing this burden will continue. Are you fucking high? You don’t have to put on an affirmative defense if you’re on trial for murder. You can just sit back, and when the state is done presenting their case say the defense rests and go immediately to the jury. If they prosecution hasn’t proved each and every element of the crime you are accused of beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury acquits you. But if you want to assent SELF DEFENSE, you’re not asserting that the facts as alleged by the prosecution never happened. You’re introducing new facts. Like “the black kid reached for his waistband”. If you want to assert that the black kid reached for his waistband and therefore you’re a hero for killing him, then absolutely it is up to you to establish that the dead kid did, in fact, reach for his waistband. Note that the affirmative defense typically has a different burden of proof than “beyond a reasonable doubt”. The typical standard is something like “clear and convincing evidence” or “a preponderance of the evidence”. If you don’t like the way we do things here in America why don’t you go back to Communist Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/599 "2014-12-04T22:09:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But if you want to assent SELF DEFENSE, you’re not asserting that the facts as alleged by the prosecution never happened. You’re introducing new facts. Like “the black kid reached for his waistband”. If you want to assert that the black kid reached for his waistband and therefore you’re a hero for killing him, then absolutely it is up to you to establish that the dead kid did, in fact, reach for his waistband. Again, depends on the state. Quite a few states where self-defense is NOT affirmative defense. That is, you have to introduce self-defense, and the state has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that it wasn’t self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/600 "2014-12-04T22:19:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If they prosecution hasn’t proved each and every element of the crime you are accused of beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury acquits you. To be fair, this is optimal outcome. This is how it should/is supposed to work, but note that whether tried by judge or jury, that’s not always how it works. You can have a jury or judge acting as jury deliberately or negligently ignore the evidence and/or the law, whether or not your lawyer is ineffective. It happens with regularity, which is all the more worrisome in light of how few trials actually take place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=31)