# Just fucking obey the cops and the law. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848 "2014-11-28T20:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/121 "2014-11-29T22:41:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Alright, I’m going to make this hypothetical as narrow as possible so that you can’t possibly fight it. > > As the result of a freak accident involving a time machine, the Fox News satellite, and a wizard, you have instantaneously been teleported into a public park in Cleveland, OH, dressed in a police uniform with full gun belt, where you are standing next to a parked police cruiser in front of a young man with a gun tucked into his waistband. Upon seeing you materialize in front of him, you observe him to reach for the gun in his waistband. > > At what point are you justified in using your own gun to defend yourself? There is no hypothetical about the Tamir Rice shooting, it happened. The difference being that I would not have chosen to be placed right next to a person with a gun. The officers had the same choice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/122 "2014-11-29T22:42:42Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Perhaps we could agree that it’s simply a Darwin list move for anyone to reach for their gun in the presence of a police officer who just told you to put your hands up. I don’t know. I’m a liberal and not at all pro 2nd amendment, but isn’t “reaching for their gun” the same as “bear arms”? Does that constitutional right cease to exist if you are within eyeball distance of an officer? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/123 "2014-11-29T22:45:32Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Perhaps we could agree that it’s simply a Darwin list move for anyone to reach for their gun in the presence of a police officer who just told you to put your hands up. What if you are a child reaching for your toy? That would make your statement pretty much a non sequitur, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/124 "2014-11-29T22:48:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is speculation as to whether they shouted anything at him and, if they did, what they shout at him and when. > Once again, the facts are relevant. Hey, it isn’t the fault of the cop that the kid couldn’t read his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/125 "2014-11-29T22:58:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [QUOTE=Smapti] > _stuff…_ …so for the rest of this conversation could you at least stop trying to distort this one small factual bit of the story? Is that too much to ask? [/QUOTE] Don’t be silly. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > And those shots your suspect fired missed the cops and hit some 4 year old girl at a birthday party **a few blocks away** , I want one of those handguns ! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/126 "2014-11-29T23:02:43Z")
As the mother of an about to be twelve year old, am I allowed to say that I want cops with better judgment than twelve year olds? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/127 "2014-11-29T23:21:53Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > I don’t know. I’m a liberal and not at all pro 2nd amendment, but isn’t “reaching for their gun” the same as “bear arms”? No. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/128 "2014-11-29T23:37:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No. How much fellatio do you perform, on a weekly basis, on LEO? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/129 "2014-11-29T23:43:31Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > How much fellatio do you perform, on a weekly basis, on LEO? None. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/130 "2014-11-29T23:48:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > None. Admit it-You’ve started to creep them out down at the station just a wee bit, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/131 "2014-11-30T00:05:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Admit it-You’ve started to creep them out down at the station just a wee bit, haven’t you? When someone resorts to that level of discussion, I always assume that they have run out of anything intelligent to say. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/132 "2014-11-30T00:10:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > When did this change, and was it publicized? English courts (the source of common law) recognized the right to resist an unlawful arrest as far back as 1666 (Hopkin Huggett’s case, 84 Eng. Rep. 1082 (K.B.)). In the United States, the Supreme Court recognized the right in 1900 (John Bad Elk v. United States, 177 U.S. 529)). Since that time, all but fourteen states have either by statute or case law abrogated that right, and the rest seem to have done so by implication. If you have a specific state, I’ll tell you when they did so. The Model Penal Code, used by many states as a baseline framework for the law, made the change in 1960 (Wayne R. LaFave, 1 Search and Seizure § 1.13(a)). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/133 "2014-11-30T00:13:13Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > I’ll take this one. I would shoot after the suspect has started shooting. Man was that so hard? Unfortunately, in the real world, the police are not actually obligated to allow suspects the first shot. So your opinion may be that they SHOULD incur such an obligation, but society as a whole does not agree. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/134 "2014-11-30T00:14:55Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I want one of those handguns ! A 9mm bullet travels around 1400 fps. It will travel over 1500 feet before it strikes the ground. That’s easily a few blocks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/135 "2014-11-30T00:28:13Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > When someone resorts to that level of discussion, I always assume that they have run out of anything intelligent to say. Says the guy who introduced hypothetical shots being fired traveling four blocks and hitting a hypothetical 4 year old girl at her hypothetical birthday party into a conversation about a real child getting killed by police who may or may not have been reaching for his toy gun, but certainly wasn’t waving his toy gun around when he was shot. If you want to be more than humored in this conversation, _bring_ some intelligence into it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/136 "2014-11-30T00:32:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, in the real world, the police are not actually obligated to allow suspects the first shot. > > So your opinion may be that they SHOULD incur such an obligation, but society as a whole does not agree. That’s my opinion yes. Currently that is not part of the rules of engagement followed by police, but I think that you are stretching when you say that “society” does not agree. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/137 "2014-11-30T00:36:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Says the guy who introduced hypothetical shots being fired traveling four blocks and hitting a hypothetical 4 year old girl at her hypothetical birthday party into a conversation about a real child getting killed by police who may or may not have been reaching for his toy gun, but certainly wasn’t waving his toy gun around when he was shot. If you want to be more than humored in this conversation, _bring_ some intelligence into it. Says the guy who fantasizes about being with police at the police station. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/138 "2014-11-30T00:53:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Says the guy who fantasizes about being with police at the police station. \*\* Smapti? \*\* 😕 He didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/139 "2014-11-30T01:12:15Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You know what? > > You know fucking what? > > I don’t give two fucking shits what your stupid fucking asinine argument is. > > _This doesn’t happen in Europe._ > > That’s all you need to know. > > This shit _Does. Not. HAPPEN. In Europe._ > > That should be the end of the conversation right there. Fuck obeying the police. The problem is with _police culture_. True. 400+ Americans were killed by cops in the latest reported year. None in Britain. Single digits in Germany. None in Italy, IIRC. But then again European cops don’t have to deal with massive numbers of armed and dangerous gun nuts. Gun nuts should be _thanking_ the family of Tamir Rice: he is the sort of collateral damage that permits them to enjoy their freedom to arm themselves to a crazy extent and engage in homicidal fantasies. Plenty of Americans feel no need to even own a firearm. But plenty do. Yes, there should be required gun education, _provided it’s not taught by NRA manics_. That would be like putting the tobacco lobby in charge of health education or appointing Wayne LaPierre to lead a mental health task force. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848/140 "2014-11-30T01:45:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Says the guy who fantasizes about being with police at the police station. Back to those imaginary conversations again, I see. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-fucking-obey-the-cops-and-the-law/705848.md?page=8)