Do you really not see the difference between a surgeon operating on an unconscious patient, and a policeman reacting to someone’s conscious decision to reach for what appeared to be a gun?
It’s tragic that this kid did something stupid that got him killed. It’s always tragic when anyone does something stupid and gets themselves killed, and more so when it’s a kid. But it’s no more the cops fault than it would be the driver’s fault if a kid got killed playing with traffic.
This tragedy was absolutely caused by the police. They didn’t follow the correct procedure, and by coming so close, they created a hair-trigger situation that ended in the death of a child. They are supposedly trained professionals, so they are they ones who are supposed to contain, control and defuse the situation. Likening the cops to rape victims is beyond reprehensible.
The cops should certainly have taken more care and that’s *absolutely *relevant. That’s the whole point. Even if he did have a real gun, there was no need for Tamir Rice to die if the cops had done their jobs properly. The approach they took was undoubtedly not the approach they were *trained *to take. For that, they should be punished to the full extent of the law, but I sadly suspect that they’ll get away either scott-free or with a slap on the wrist.
Quite apart from the unfathomable stupidity of the rest of your post (“toy gun”? No…), this is the part that’s really fucking dangerously wrong. No-one here chose to kill. They acted in self defence, nothing more, nothing less. But you know what? Even had they chosen to murder him, it wouldn’t have been a penalty of any sort. Because cops don’t have the authority to issue a death penalty. Nothing they can do can even slightly resemble that.
It’s this sort of inflammatory, ridiculous rhetoric that is why so many people think those on the left are utterly full of shit. You literally have no fucking clue what you’re talking about.
No-one thinks the kid deserved to die, not even the cops who killed him. But as one of the great philosophers of our time once said, “deserve’s got nothing to do with it”.
What is the full extent of punishment the law provides for killing someone in justified self defence? I, too, hope that they get punished to that extent.
What is the full extent of punishment the law provides for killing someone as a result of criminal negligence or manslaughter? I hope they get punished to that extent.
Do you agree that this tragedy could have been avoided if they’d followed the correct procedure? Do you think that Tamir Rice would have died if the cops had done their jobs properly?
You don’t know he reached for his toy. He could have been merely pulling up his pants. He had less than two seconds from the time they arrived to the time he was fatally wounded. How many adults would have performed perfectly under such circumstances? The police caused the tragedy, the cops involved should be charged with manslaughter.
Self defense? Yeah they had no choice but the murder the twelve year. Or he would shoot them with his widdle toy gun. There’s someone stupid here. But it isn’t me.
Again–because this fact still hasn’t made it through the dense layers of your skull–the cops didn’t react to someone’s “conscious decision to reach for what appeared to be a gun”. They made a assumption based on an uninvestigated claim of dubious credibility and reacted impulsively and recklessly because of that assumption.
No, I don’t see a difference. We entrust surgeons with our bodies because we assume they have the training and judgment to make the best decisions regarding our health, regardless of surrounding stresses. Our trust in them also requires us to assume that they won’t gamble with our lives for the sake of money, convenience, or their own comfort level . In other words, we assume they will perform their jobs ethically and competently.
The stakes are too high to assume anything less, and the same applies to cops. They have the power to take people’s lives with impunity, so of course they should be held to the same standards that we hold surgeons, if not higher! You have to be one magnificent imbecile not to get this.
Drug dealer? Cite that he was a drug dealer.
He was a playing with a toy gun in a public place. He wasn’t hurting anyone. Someone panicked and called the police. The cops came next to him, gave him essentially no time to react and then shot him in cold blood when he didn’t immediately respond. The cops then stood there and did nothing as the kid died in front of them.
These are the facts of the matter. They are not in dispute. The twelve year old did not do anything wrong and he was murdered. The cops killed the kid and now expect us to respond their actions with condemnation of the twelve year old.
This is crazy.
Clearest image I’ve seen of the "toy gun"in question. Notice that it says Colt on the side (not saying the cop could have read that). They are made under license from the manufacturers of firearms like Colt, Beretta, HK, etc. to be as realistic as possible. Remove, paint, blacken with a Sharpie the orange tip and it looks exactly like the real thing.
Yes, and yes. Do you understand that those questions are irrelevant to whether the killing was justified?
This is a good summary. Can we just keep repeating these points?
Why on earth would you think he was unconsciously reaching for his gun, instead of obeying the cops? That doesn’t suggest that he was innocent, quite the opposite.
Avoiding being shot is not looking out for your “comfort level” you fucking ignoramus. Yes, the cops acted stupidly by pulling up so close to him, but that stupidity would have harmed absolutely no-one if Rice had done anything but reach towards his gun.
The cops have no more power, or right, to take someone’s life than anyone else. They also, however, have no less right to defend themselves than anyone else. If someone who’s being operated on threatens the surgeon, the surgeon has just as much right to defend himself as anyone else. Conversely, if the police come upon someone who’s clearly unconscious and kill him, they are just as guilty of a crime as a surgeon who does that.
Why do you think the only possible interpretation is that he was reaching for his gun, Steophan?
As for this, I really cannot see how anyone can characterise someone, having been told to freeze by the police, reaching for a gun as “doing nothing wrong”. At minimum, it’s utterly stupid, and at worst it’s actually criminal.
I’m am quite sure if I shot and killed a 12 year-old on these facts (shooting a kid in park about 2 seconds after I arrive after seeing something that looks like the butt of a real gun in his waist band) I’d be in jail awaiting trial.
I don’t, I think it’s reasonable that the police could have thought he was reaching for his gun.
My favoured interpretation is that he was going to show them it was a fake. Like I said, stupidity, ignoring their instructions. But his intent doesn’t matter.
They are absolutely relevant. the cops created a tragic situation by failing to use proper procedure. They are the ones that put themselves in a position where they were apparently *forced *to kill a child as an act of self-defence out of mortal and immediate fear for their very lives :dubious: If they’d kepttheir distance as they were no doubt trained to do, he’d be alive.
Seriously, they created a situation where Rice had *no time *to respond. They charged in with guns already drawn and gunned him down as soon as he twitched.
There was no need for that to happen. They MADE it happen through their own choices. And who knows if they even gave Rice any verbal warnings, shouts or instructions at all? All we have is their word for it, at least until the dashcam video is released.
Why do you believe he even reached for anything, when the tape doesn’t show this?For me to believe he was reaching for his gun, I would need to take the word of cops stupid enough to roll up on a potential gunman and open fire in 2 seconds flat.
