# Just here to say "Thanks!", Like Treasury Sec. O'Neill Said **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276 "2002-07-10T18:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/21 "2002-07-11T03:56:42Z")
Yes it was! Here’s a man who was a CEO and as Treasury Secretary said that we should repeal all taxes on corporations telling me I needed to be thankful for privelaged, rich CEOs! And yes it was poorly timed! Think about this from a purely political standpoint. An amoral, tactical standpoint. This moron’s job was to get up there on national fucking telelvision and have some softballs lobbed at him so he can spew crap about what a good fucking job the criminal president is doing keeping all of the other criminals in check. All he has to say is “We’re gonna go out there and clean house so you investors can retain confidence in the companies.” That’s all he has to do. Instead, I get “Be thankful for your betters!” from this patrician while people lose their jobs and their retirement savings all over the company because of crimes committed by his fellow patricians! Now why would that piss me off? Sorry…sorry…calm…calm…must remain calm… ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/22 "2002-07-11T04:02:02Z")
Yes it was! Here’s a man who was a CEO and as Treasury Secretary said that we should repeal all taxes on corporations telling me I needed to be thankful for privelaged, rich CEOs! And yes it was poorly timed! Think about this from a purely political standpoint. An amoral, tactical standpoint. This moron’s job was to get up there on national fucking telelvision and have some softballs lobbed at him so he can spew crap about what a good fucking job the criminal president is doing keeping all of the other criminals in check. All he has to say is “We’re gonna go out there and clean house so you investors can retain confidence in the companies.” That’s all he has to do. Instead, I get “Be thankful for your betters!” from this patrician while people lose their jobs and their retirement savings all over the company because of crimes committed by his fellow patricians! Now why would that piss me off? Sorry…sorry…calm…calm…must remain calm… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/23 "2002-07-11T04:07:18Z")
Not for nothing, but O’Neill wasn’t talking about the dishonest, cheating, lousy CEOs at places like Enron and WorldCom, those guys, and everybody involved in that fraud deserve punishment. The good CEOs out there who create good corporate environments, and build the actual value of the company do a great service for our country. They create jobs by keeping American businesses competitive and growing. They make products and services cheaper for everybody so we can all enjoy a higher standard of living. They get paid handsomely for this, but the good ones are worth every penny. There are a lot of lousy CEOs out there, and lousy business practices, I’ll not expend a single breath to defend them. I just really hate to see corporations in general slammed, because they are not the enemy. On preview: > [@](#): > > spew crap about what a good fucking job the criminal president is doing keeping all of the other criminals in check I’ll post this since I’ve already typed it, but it’s obvious there is absolutely no point to continuing this at all. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/24 "2002-07-11T04:12:36Z")
Sorry for the double post. I only hit the button once. And now I notice that I said “company” instead of “country”. But hey, if what cheesteak and Neurotik say is true, maybe it wasn’t a mistake after all. But it just doesn’t work as well to convince men to get in those great machines that the wonderful huge manufacturing base has produced and fly off to their deaths to defend “The company”. When the Honorable President Bush was rallying the populace after September 11, he said that we were fighting for “freedom” not “the companies”. At least that’s what I’m rooting for. ---
**Author:** ![Ankh\_Too](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Ankh\_Too](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ankh_Too)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/25 "2002-07-11T04:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > \*\*But you must admit, each and every one of you, that the modern corporation has caused some very serious bad things to happen in America and in the world. The ones I listed above are just the tip of the iceberg. \*\* Absolutely, just as the church (pick one) has done very serious bad things, small business owners have done very serious bad things, individuals have done very serious bad things and even the (gasp) government has done very serious bad things. VSBT happen. To all subsections of society. Picking corporations out to excoriate without recognizing that it happens everywhere is just a tad disingenous. \*on preview, I see that **johnson** has already made this same point. I really need to type faster. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Furthermore, you must admit that the particular remark that prompted my decent into madness was both poorly timed and hovering dangerously in Marie Antoinette territory, especially coming from someone who has “unindicted co conspirator” written all over him. \*\* Actually, I don’t have to admit anything of the sort. I didn’t happen to catch the rest of his speech, only that part which you brought to my attention, but that particular remark seemed quite accurate to me. I personally believe that there are far more people out there working away in (or even running) corporations small, medium and **large** , that do their job aggressively, working to maximize the company’s profits and minimize the costs, without delving into the excesses of greed that make those oh-so-juicy headlines. > [@](#): > > \*\*I stand by my statements about Wal Mart. They have caused more harm to my hometown than good. \*\* Stand by whatever you desire, it doesn’t mean that the blame should be borne by WalMart instead of the consumers. I’m no fan of WalMart myself, but I’m not deluded enough to blame them for what the customers themselves do. \*\* > [@](#): > > Scout, I’m glad you can get those motherfuckers to pay you money. Bully for you. I still believe that advertising as it is practiced by many pharmaceutical companies is unethical. I furthermore believe that entities like health insurance companies and pharmeceutical companies should put the welfare of the people they serve, whose very lives they hold in their hands sometimes, over profits. Period. Just because you CAN gouge someone for a lifesaving drug doesn’t mean you have the right to. Business is not amoral. Is that simplistic, naive, and idealistic? Sure it is. But so is “All men are created equal”. \*\* Oh please, this is nothing more than a rehash of that ridiculous canard about “charging $10 for a pill that costs 15¢ to produce…” is bullshit. The second pill might cost 15¢, but the first one could have cost half a billion dollars in research and development. There certainly is room for improvement in the health care industry and there probably are cases of price gouging to be found, but to slap a big red sign on the entire industry is simplistic beyond belief. \*\* > [@](#): > > obfusciastrist, pldennison, and manhattan, you have each provided examples of good behaviour by CEOs. > \*\* Yeah, and it’s probably that they’re the only three, right? redux: > [@](#): > > **All he has to say is “We’re gonna go out there and clean house so you investors can retain confidence in the companies.” That’s all he has to do.** You mean something like: > [@](#): > > And so the president is saying we need to take action so that people can count on what’s said to them. > [@](#): > > **from this patrician while people lose their jobs and their retirement savings all over the company because of crimes committed by his fellow patricians!** The workers control the means of production… the struggle struggle of the urban proletariat… Guess you don’t get that lounge suite, huh Karl? ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/26 "2002-07-11T11:45:02Z")
Aside from other comments from **vibrotronica** , it’s rather amusing to see you call O’Neill a “patrician.” Are you aware of his background? He’s only a “first-generation patrician,” if that. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/27 "2002-07-11T12:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \But there’s more thanks due for Wal Mart! Thanks so much for progressive business practices like locking employees in the building after closing time for an hour or two of unpaid labor.\ I wanna know more about when and where this happened—none of the people I know who have or do now work for Wal-Mart has ever mentioned this, although they do have a lot of other complaints. I believe that forcibly restraining people in a locked building would be the basis for some massive lawsuits, but maybe I am wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/28 "2002-07-11T12:18:03Z")
And, by the way **vibrotronica** , I’d like to know why you called O’Neill “someone who has ‘unindicted co-conspirator’ written all over him.” I know it’s the Pit, but if there is some factual basis behind this, a cite would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/29 "2002-07-11T15:26:40Z")
One hastens to note that the posters who are so deeply grateful for the beneficence and civic-mindedness of CEO’s have one unifying characterisitc: they are all doing rather well, thank you. Gone for good are the horror years when the Fiend Leavitt tried to impose accounting rules that would stifle the creativity of God’s Chosen Ones! A kinder, gentler SEC is bestowed upon us by the grace of the Party! An SEC that recognizes, in the deathless words of the Reborn Churchill, that just because something is improper, doesn’t mean its illegal. So Enron’s partnerships are, shall we say, very “creative”. Well, isn’t creativity the very life blood of our economic system? The free enterprise system that allows any American with $2 and a dream to go out and compete, openly and fairly, with GE, or Microsoft, or WorldCom! Who else could provide such a spectacle, as a WorldCom or an Enron vaults nimbly from the edge of a precipice and drops, like a thunderbolt, straight into the toilet! And how can we, as fellow beings, not shed a tear at the fate of such men as these? Disgraced, hounded, doomed to face the grim fate of a Stern Talking-to, and have only the meager comfort of a gazillion dollars! I, for one, am deeply moved! Would that I could sacrifice myself, and take thier place in this tragic moment! ---
**Author:** ![scout1222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@scout1222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scout1222)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/30 "2002-07-11T15:33:53Z")
Hey, thanks **Ankh\_Too** for watching my back. Incidentally, the pharmaceutical company I work for is not yet profitable. We’ve been R&D’ing for about 12 years or so, and are just finally beginning to sell our products in the marketplace. So the place is pretty much a money pit right now, and we’re trying to dig our way out of it. That of course does _not_ mean that we never piss away money on stupid things. Trust me, I’ve seen the shit we spend money on. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tretiak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Tretiak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tretiak)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/31 "2002-07-11T15:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **…blah blah blah…** ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/32 "2002-07-11T16:12:25Z")
First, _mea culpa_ on Wally World & property taxes. I had limited anecdotal evidence from two towns that offered Sam & Spawn 10 year exclusions to build a store in town–city fathers thinking that all the new jobs at minimum wage would make up for the people who lost their jobs at Joe’s Pharmacy. Then Wal Mart comes in and uses their size to drive Joe out of business by selling at a loss. Nah, not unfair business practices, just driving David out by being Goliath. Second, while our putative President’s status as a criminal is, as yet, undetermined and uninvestigated, it is becoming more and more clear that questionable/unethical/illegal accounting practices have been proliferating throughout the corporate world. According to the (apparent) Big-L Libertarians who’ve been posting, why should we not be questioning the leaders of every business in the world? Third, I once had a mutual fund worth a few thousand bucks. I now, due to the crappy ethics of a few CEOs, have a mutual fund worth a few hundred bucks. Someone want to come in here and tell me it’s my fault for not paying attention? Someone want to come in here and tell me that–I dunno, as an investor in a mutual fund, I should have known that a liar and a thief was the head of one of the companies? Someone want to come in here and pay back the thousands of dollars I lost based on illegal/unethical accounting practices? Fourth, as to Wally World’s lack of overtime and locking people in the store: [http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/wm-legal.html](http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/wm-legal.html) Another: [http://www.lieffcabraser.com/wal-mart.htm](http://www.lieffcabraser.com/wal-mart.htm) A quick Google will give you more than 10 pages of results. ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/33 "2002-07-11T16:30:30Z")
Obviously, **elucidator** , if one points out the fact that corporations have done a great deal of good in this world, and improved the lot in life for almost all Americans, they necessarily support all corporate abuses including the accounting practices of Enron, the professional responsbility and ethics of Arthur Andersen, and the lack of SEC regulation in the Clinton years. Not to mention the monopolistic practices of Microsoft. I’m all for those things and much, much more, and I have no doubt, from careful reading of their posts that **Ankh\_too** , **Neurotik** , **Cheesesteak** , **Manhattan** and all the rest are, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/34 "2002-07-11T18:00:06Z")
I’n not usually one to quote [scripture](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_029.html) for the Devil’s purposes, but sometimes it’s just too fershlugginer hard to resist… “Christ, leave it to the Teeming Millions to speak up for the rats.” – **Cecil Adams** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/35 "2002-07-11T18:01:48Z")
But of course! How could I fail to see it! It is civic virtue that drives these men, civic virtue that gushes from the wellspring of thier humanity! That, and that alone, impels them, hollow-eyed and weary, to trudge thier way to brutal toil: e-mails, memos, meetings, in an office where the air conditioning is _never_ quite right, and the cappuccino imperfectly frothed! Woe! Woe, to see their wives and children turned out into the snows of Aspen, and spurned at the gated communities of the Hamptons! Pray for me, blessed disciples of Mammon, for I have sinned. And will again, at the earlliest opportunity ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/36 "2002-07-11T18:30:03Z")
Weighing in here on the Wal-Mart issue: This is directed at the folks touting the BS “If people did not want Wal-Mart they wouldn’t shop there” arguments. For some time now, I have seen these arguments as unsatisfying, but have a hard time saying why. There is a grain of truth there. Generally, I will shop at a locally owned establishment (even choosing to pay a slightly higher price) when given a choice. For example, on the street where I live, there is a Starbucks and a local type coffee shop. A Grande (read Large) drip coffee will cost me $1.63 at the Starbucks, and $1.75 at the other. I go to the other. But you see, it is also corporations (that after all, exist only to create a profit) that pay employees as little as the market will bear and who charge as much as the market will bear that make these choices so very hard. A $0.12 choice in favor of the little guy is easy, but $1 or more starts to feel spendthrift. And lets not overlook the horrible aesthetics involved here. My lord those stores are fucking ugly! A blight on the landscape really. I think, ultimately, the objection here is that these huge corporations (while undoubtedly doing some good for the USA) are pretty bad citizens. Just in the paper today, [the stock market is at a 5 year low](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134491331_market11.html) because of the mistrust that is generated by all of these crooked accounting practices. My guess is that this will have global consequences. And really, I think that it is OK to be pissed off about this. I think that the fact that such a very small (if we believe that most corporations are noble and good and have the interest of the little people at heart :rolleyes: ) group of crooked fucks can throw the economy in to a tailspin is something that deserves attention. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/37 "2002-07-11T18:34:14Z")
blah blah **revolution** blah blah blah **first against the wall** blah blah blah **marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation** Because it had to be done. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/38 "2002-07-11T18:40:53Z")
**elucidator** you really think corporate execs just sit around drinking martinis and smoking cigars all day don’t you? I’ve seen the hours that the execs around here put up, and the crap they deal with. Not the top guys either, the execs in charge of little $300M/yr business units. I’ve seen the job, and don’t want any part of it, because I’d like to have a life. An execs day is 100% meetings, people in and out of the office every half hour, a decision to be made every time. lunch? the secretary brings it in so he can eat it during a meeting. e-mail? that’s for the end of the day, start reading the 100 daily e-mails after 7pm or when you’re home, whichever is more “convenient”. Of course, as often as not, the drive home is yet another chance to have a meeting, thanks to the cell phone. Customers hounding you, your subordinates asking for your blessing on every stupid thing, your superior questioning every blip in your finances. IMHO, it’s a crappy life, one that I’m totally not interested in, regardless of the money involved. I doubt anybody here is dumb enough to actually think that altruism is what drives these people. It’s greed, mostly, love of power perhaps, along with some other factors, I’m sure. Greed is what makes capitalism work, give people the opportunity to be rich, and they will work their asses of to do so. People will build the better mousetrap, not for the betterment of society, but for the betterment of their bank account. That’s ok, because your bank account doesn’t grow (generally) if you don’t create something of value. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/39 "2002-07-11T18:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > …Greed is what makes capitalism work… Is there a better reason to loathe it? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276/40 "2002-07-11T20:25:50Z")
Loathe it? That’s why I **love** it! Capitalism takes the basest, the lowest of human desires and uses it to distribute wealth in a fairly equitable manner. Those who contribute (economically) more get more, those who contribute less get less. It forces everyone to work harder and doesn’t rely on convincing them to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-here-to-say-thanks-like-treasury-sec-oneill-said/118276.md?page=3)