# Just how backwards is Saudi Arabia? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978 "2015-01-16T14:47:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/41 "2015-01-17T03:28:04Z")
jasg: Could you post a link to information about that incident? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/42 "2015-01-17T04:19:53Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > If only because they are an elective monarchy rather than through primogeniture. Elected by whom? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/43 "2015-01-17T04:21:52Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Elected by whom? The Princes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/44 "2015-01-17T04:41:53Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > For the record I detest Saudi as a regime. > > If only because they are an elective monarchy rather than through primogeniture. I actually went to the trouble of reasearching some of your posting history just to make sure I wasn’t being whooshed by some sly sarcasm. Apparently not - kudos for a consistent philosophy, I suppose. But yeah, gotta disagree :). I mean the Saudi Arabian government does indeed suck hot desert rocks. But if you have to have a hereditary ruler ( and lord knows you _don’t_ ), SA’s version of choosing one actually does beat most of the alternatives, including primogeniture, by a country mile. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/45 "2015-01-17T05:20:54Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But if you have to have a hereditary ruler ( and lord knows you _don’t_ ) You don’t need government at all, either [and if the sad little libertarians rejoice at that, without government their precious property rights vanish like a dream]. However, although all forms else are oligarchies [such as Saudi], having the moronate elect the crooks by pure majority seems the least likely to achieve legitimacy. Let alone justice. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/46 "2015-01-17T06:13:50Z")
This is what I see: [Crazy-ass Drifting](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgnxQ8VvdC0) Now, I suspect this is not terrifically common, but what these guys are doing show a complete disregard for the safety of, well, anyone. Including themselves. You simply do not see behavior like this in the US. So? So it tells me that this is symptomatic of the extreme Shari’a legal system. What have they got to lose? If no one gets hurt, no one gets punished. If someone _does_ get hurt, the driver faces possibly brutal punishment. If they get maimed or killed in the accident, it works out to the same result as what the court would mete out if they survive. Treating people like dirt encourages people to act like dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/47 "2015-01-17T06:43:59Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Just like daily governance in the west, _sans_ veils. Please tell me that was intended. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/48 "2015-01-17T06:45:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > According to the Guardian, Saudia Arabia slipped a bit, and only killed 79 people in 2013, bringing them in 4th on the list of death penalty states. Number 5 on the list was North Korea, with 70 dead, followed by number 6 on the list, the United States, with 39 killed. Saudi Arabia has a population of 30,770,375 and the United States has a population of 320,061,700. Which means the per capita execution rate in Saudi Arabia is 21 times the United States’. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/49 "2015-01-17T08:36:58Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Please tell me that was intended. Indeed. 😉 Still, however vile whipping may be — and it is — it is only 62 years since the last offender was flogged in America; and I feel certain that many in the Moral Majority would enthusiastically vote to bring it back. The British in tiny Singapore had caning for rape etc. as in Britain: ‘_Under the British, it had been used as a penalty for offences involving personal violence, amounting to a handful of caning sentences per year_.’, but: _Subsequent legislation has been passed by the Parliament of Singapore over the years to increase the minimum strokes an offender receives, and the number of crimes that may be punished with caning._ - By 1993 it was mandatory for 42 offences and optional for a further 42. Those routinely ordered by the courts to be caned now include drug addicts and illegal immigrants. From 602 canings in 1987, the figure rose to 3,244 in 1993 and to 6,404 in 2007.\* Wiki: **[Caning in Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore)**, and **[Lee Kuan Yew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew)** ( now aged 91 ). But because it’s a parliamentary democracy it gets a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/50 "2015-01-17T08:44:02Z")
And… _In his 1778 Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments, Thomas Jefferson provided up to 15 lashes for witchcraft, at the jury’s discretion; castration for men guilty of rape, polygamy or sodomy, and a minimum half-inch hole bored in the nose cartilage of women convicted of those sex crimes._ Wiki: **[Judicial Corporal Punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_corporal_punishment)** He really was an awful, awful man. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/51 "2015-01-17T15:12:59Z")
I read somewhere the Magical Kingdom has the World’s highest usage of social media. It also has the most road deaths, per capita. I think there’s likely a link between those two statistics. Although texting and driving is an offence, it is rarely backed up by the police, who are on the lookout for people not praying at prayer times. The Muttawa (religious police) are actually nice and smiley, once they find out you walked past the mosque because you’re not Muslim. The decapitations are done in ‘Chop Chop’ Square, publically, and are well-attended by hundreds of people capturing the moment on their phones, which I find horrific. You can find photos and videos online, if you are that way inclined. So, you have a very strict ‘legal’ system, although there are no official laws and every decision is based on the Koran, a subservient native population, a very large immigrant population who all have to be qualified and have a completely clean criminal record (except for driving offences), and very low rates of crime, and where public drunkenness is punishable by an extended stay in a hellhole with no a/c. Private drunkenness is a wholly different animal and is practised by Saudi and non, on a huge scale. Weed is also very easy to get. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/52 "2015-01-17T16:07:18Z")
Yes, Saudi Arabia is a backward place full of horrible, awful laws and barbaric punishments. The United States is a backward place with horrible laws (only now getting around to keeping the police from arbitrary confiscating your cars and money without trial) that commits judicial murders, and some of our cops are racists who get away with murder, literally. So what you do it, condemn the death penalty and the horrible laws and practices in the US, and you do the same for Saudi Arabia. I’m not seeing the conflict here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/53 "2015-01-17T17:24:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yes, Saudi Arabia is a backward place full of horrible, awful laws and barbaric punishments. > > The United States is a backward place with horrible laws (only now getting around to keeping the police from arbitrary confiscating your cars and money without trial) that commits judicial murders, and some of our cops are racists who get away with murder, literally. > > So what you do it, condemn the death penalty and the horrible laws and practices in the US, and you do the same for Saudi Arabia. > > I’m not seeing the conflict here. Ah, another follower of the “Everything Is Exactly Equal, Therefore Nobody Gets To Criticize Anybody” Law, aka the “Sense Of Perspective? What’s That?” Law. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/54 "2015-01-17T17:33:31Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Indeed. 😉 > Still, however vile whipping may be — and it is — it is only 62 years since the last offender was flogged in America; and I feel certain that many in the Moral Majority would enthusiastically vote to bring it back. > The British in tiny Singapore had caning for rape etc. as in Britain: > > ‘_Under the British, it had been used as a penalty for offences involving personal violence, amounting to a handful of caning sentences per year_.’, but: > > _Subsequent legislation has been passed by the Parliament of Singapore over the years to increase the minimum strokes an offender receives, and the number of crimes that may be punished with caning._ > > - > > By 1993 it was mandatory for 42 offences and optional for a further 42. Those routinely ordered by the courts to be caned now include drug addicts and illegal immigrants. From 602 canings in 1987, the figure rose to 3,244 in 1993 and to 6,404 in 2007.\* > Wiki: **[Caning in Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore)**, and **[Lee Kuan Yew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew)** ( now aged 91 ). > But because it’s a parliamentary democracy it gets a pass. Bolivia re-introduced corporal punishment in the last few years, actually (though it’s a penalty reserved for the ‘indigenous courts’, which supplement the normal civil courts and are supposed to follow indigenous customary law. Reintroducing the customary courts (complete with whippings) was a big item in the platform of the far-left Morales government when they were elected (in, I think, 2006 or thereabouts). A number of countries in the Caribbean also practice judicial corporal punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/55 "2015-01-17T17:38:42Z")
> **[BBC NEWS | Programmes | Crossing Continents | Bolivia goes back to the whip](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/6173268.stm)** > > Lucy Ash reports from Bolivia where traditional indigenous justice is making a disturbing comeback under President Evo Morales. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/56 "2015-01-17T19:13:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > jasg: Could you post a link to information about that incident? Sorry, I have failed to find a cite with Google and NYT searches. During the mid to late 60s, my father was an exec/board member with the company involved. He told me of the efforts they and the Belgian government made on behalf of the salesman. It is easy to imagine that this would not have received much US press coverage in that era. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/57 "2015-01-18T20:15:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ah, another follower of the “Everything Is Exactly Equal, Therefore Nobody Gets To Criticize Anybody” Law, aka the “Sense Of Perspective? What’s That?” Law. No, I’m calling for criticizing the US for the death penalty AND criticizing the Saudi Arabians for their decapitations, entrenched sexism, superstition (some people have been executed for witchcraft there) and political repression (see: blogger caning). How does that equal “no criticism.” That is LOTS of criticism. In general, I think the US is much more civilized than Saudi Arabia, but that doesn’t mean EVERYTHING we do in the US is civilized. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/58 "2015-01-18T20:29:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > No, I’m calling for criticizing the US for the death penalty AND criticizing the Saudi Arabians for their decapitations, entrenched sexism, superstition (some people have been executed for witchcraft there) and political repression (see: blogger caning). How does that equal “no criticism.” That is LOTS of criticism. > > In general, I think the US is much more civilized than Saudi Arabia, but that doesn’t mean EVERYTHING we do in the US is civilized. And we’ve _covered_ the U.S. death penalty many times-different topic, different thread. It isn’t necessary for the U.S. to be perfect before we have the right to point out that beheading people in the public square, or whipping them for idea crimes, is fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/59 "2015-01-18T22:47:54Z")
And I’m responding by saying I don’t see a difference. Killing by the state is the barbarity. Method is secondary. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/60 "2015-01-18T22:58:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And I’m responding by saying I don’t see a difference. Killing by the state is the barbarity. Method is secondary. Well, all capital punishment may be barbaric, but some capital punishments are more barbaric than others. (ETA: As practiced in the United States lately, it doesn’t seem to be as minimally barbaric as it could be.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978.md?page=4)