# Just how backwards is Saudi Arabia? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978 "2015-01-16T14:47:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/61 "2015-01-18T23:48:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And how much time did the bus driver have to try to demonstrate that he did not cause the accident? Maybe, raise a reasonable doubt whether he had caused the accident? What help did he have from legal counsel to defend himself?.. > > …And, capital punishment for a traffic accident? Is that the mark of a fair justice system?.. How long does it take to try to demonstrate that one did not cause an accident? IIRC, the driver received the capital punishment for killing some children, not for not ‘a traffic accident’. I think you have something backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/62 "2015-01-19T01:26:05Z")
Here’s what **Dolphinboy** originally posted: > [@](#): > > there had been a horrendous bus accident that was caused by the driver where some kids had died, and incidentally the bus driver wasn’t licensed to drive a bus. The bus driver was arrested on the spot, the trial was held on Wednesday and he was beheaded on Friday. Based on **AK84** ’s comments in post 26, it may simply be an urban legend. But, assuming it’s true, the allegation is not that the driver of the bus killed children. It’s that the driver of the bus was responsible for an accident in which children died. That’s a different thing than saying the driver killed children. And, as for how long it takes? Well, in a western case, there would be a lengthy police investigation, to determine the cause of the accident: • Traffic forensics: are there any skid marks? How fast was the bus travelling at the time of the accident? Is there any other evidence of dangerous driving by the bus driver? • Is there any evidence the bus driver had been drinking? • There would be an examination of the bus: is there any sign of a mechanical failure before the accident (e.g. brake failure), unknown to the driver, and that was the cause of the accident? • What about the other driver? Had the other driver been drinking? • Had the other driver been driving in a reckless fashion? How fast had the other driver been driving? That’s all the routine sort of investigation that has to occur before the police are able to conclude that the driver caused the accident, meeting a criminal standard, and for the prosecutors then to be able to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. And, that’s the sort of thing that competent defence counsel will want to investigate, long before there is a trial. It’s not the sort of thing that can occur on the spur of the moment, from initial accident to guilty verdict to death penalty in less than a week. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/63 "2015-01-19T01:34:48Z")
In [current news](http://news.yahoo.com/charlie-attack-raises-stakes-saudi-arabia-flogging-case-100844753.html;_ylt=AwrSyCQpXrxUW3UAdDzQtDMD): _Badawi, who set up a “Free Saudi Liberals” website, was flogged 50 times in public a week ago by an Interior Ministry official and was sentenced to face the same punishment every Friday until he has received 1,000 lashes. He will then spend 10 years in prison. The doctor who carried out a pre-flogging medical check-up recommended that Friday’s second flogging be postponed until next week, …_ Backward, and barbaric. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/64 "2015-01-19T03:11:58Z")
**Northern Piper** , why do you assume there was another driver? Several of the worst bus accidents I remember involved the bus taking a curve too quickly, jumping out and turning over. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/65 "2015-01-19T03:13:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And I’m responding by saying I don’t see a difference. Killing by the state is the barbarity. Method is secondary. Don’t disagree with you. But generally, the people that American states put to death have been convicted of some fairly heinous crime or crimes - homicide, usually.\* We don’t put people to death for starting a website or being an atheist.\*\* _That’s_ the difference. \*Of course, there’s always the question of whether the person is actually _guilty_ of the crime - cf. the Innocence Project - but that’s a whole 'nother thread… \*\*Yes, I know Badawi is not being executed. But one of the charges against him was “apostasy”. Which is a capital crime in the Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/66 "2015-01-19T03:13:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And we’ve _covered_ the U.S. death penalty many times-different topic, different thread. It isn’t necessary for the U.S. to be perfect before we have the right to point out that beheading people in the public square, or whipping them for idea crimes, is fucked up. We’re on the same page there. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/67 "2015-01-19T03:47:00Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > And they should care exactly why ? > > You are entitled to your own opinions, no matter how odd, but they, nor anyone else, are not obligated to share those opinions nor conform to anything anyone in the world thinks, unless that other can exert sufficient force to impel obedience. I’m curious, given the total lack of relevance of your above comments to this OP, why you make them. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/68 "2015-01-19T04:15:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Northern Piper** , why do you assume there was another driver? Several of the worst bus accidents I remember involved the bus taking a curve too quickly, jumping out and turning over. I’m not assuming. I was asked why it is a complex issue to conclude that someone caused an accident. Whether another driver was involved in the accident is one of those causation issues, and which both the police and the defence counsel will investigate in a western system of justice. And that takes time. Time is the handmaiden of Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/69 "2015-01-19T04:21:18Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Don’t disagree with you. But generally, the people that American states put to death have been convicted of some fairly heinous crime or crimes - homicide, usually.\* We don’t put people to death for starting a website or being an atheist.\*\* _That’s_ the difference. Except previous posters in this thread haven’t been making that argument. They’ve been saying that a public execution by beheading is barbaric, as if that’s self-evidently morally inferior to other forms of state-sanctioned killing. As I argued up-thread, I do not accept that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/70 "2015-01-19T05:08:21Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I’m curious, given the total lack of relevance of your above comments to this OP, why you make them. What lack of relevance ? Singapore caning ? American whipping ? Both as nasty as Saudi flogging. The fact remains: they have no duty to conform to western or any other values unless they are made to do so by force. So the Sauds won’t care what part of the world, particularly the non-islamic world, thinks. We are going to continue buying their oil. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/71 "2015-01-19T05:56:29Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > What lack of relevance? Singapore caning ? American whipping ? Both as nasty as Saudi flogging. The fact remains: they have no duty to conform to western or any other values unless they are made to do so by force. > > So the Sauds won’t care what part of the world, particularly the non-islamic world, thinks. We are going to continue buying their oil. We are in IMHO and the OP asks: “Just how backwards is Saudi Arabia?” and “Anyone have any experience living in SA?” and “Ever attended a public beheading or flogging?” So people are offering their opinions on those subjects, particularly the first. Your post to which I was responding was to the effect that the Saudis have no reason to care about or share the opinions expressed by posters in this thread. Which is irrelevant to the OP which did not say that Saudis should care about the opinions of posters here, or that Saudis should or must share those opinions. Your post is of course self defeating, since its central view would appear to be that it’s not worth expressing opinions unless you can forcibly impose them; a view that would apply to post #39 at least as much as any other. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/72 "2015-01-19T06:19:48Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > The latest news coming out of Saudi Arabia is for the blogger who is going to receive 1,000 public lashes, to be delivered 50 a week for one year, […] > [@GESancMan](#): > > So backwards that they can’t even do basic arithmetic? > [@Little Nemo](#): > > It works in Arabia. They’re still using a lunar calendar that’s only 354 days long. It does? Do they have a different week length too? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/73 "2015-01-19T06:53:02Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Your post to which I was responding was to the effect that the Saudis have no reason to care about or share the opinions expressed by posters in this thread. Which is irrelevant to the OP which did not say that Saudis should care about the opinions of posters here, or that Saudis should or must share those opinions. And that post was in response to another’s post; which you have ignored. An OP does not control the flow of discussion. > [@](#): > > Your post is of course self defeating, since its central view would appear to be that it’s not worth expressing opinions unless you can forcibly impose them; a view that would apply to post #39 at least as much as any other. All opinions are equally valuable, at least to those that express them. Some, dependent on the utterer, are _ipso facto_ worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/74 "2015-01-19T07:07:57Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > And that post was in response to another’s post… Which did nothing more than offer the poster’s views on the subject at hand. Once again, your comments about worthlessness are as applicable to your own views as anyone’s. If you believe what you say, what are you doing here? ---
**Author:** ![straightdough](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@straightdough](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straightdough)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/75 "2015-01-19T07:13:10Z")
what would be interesting is if someone was into S&M/BDSM and, for a minor twist, also had an exhibitionist streak in them…now how would that public flogging make for a “punishment” to someone like that? more like a reward?? lol ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/76 "2015-01-19T07:51:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Which did nothing more than offer the poster’s views on the subject at hand. Once again, your comments about worthlessness are as applicable to your own views as anyone’s. If you believe what you say, what are you doing here? Sadly for you I never said opinions were worthless, nor expressing them. And indeed said that everyone has the right to their opinions, and — a fairly unconditional — right to express them. Which is not currently a view espoused by western, let alone eastern, governments. However one liberal delusion is that by explaining the views one holds, interminably if need be, other dissenting actors will be obligated to change their erroneous ways, and conform to one’s will. I am pointing out they will not care and there’s no law of the universe that impels them to care. If you personally want to put pressure on the Sauds, your best bet is to write endlessly to your legislators, maybe in crayon, demanding they impose an embargo on Saudi oil until they change their ways. There was a qualifier in my statement about worthlessness of _some_ opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/77 "2015-01-19T08:13:49Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > There was a qualifier in my statement about worthlessness of _some_ opinions. Sure, and since this thread is not and never has been about the value of the opinions expressed, your comment is irrelevant. Further, once again, your point is as I understand it that SDMB posters’ opinions about the Saudis will not be shared and will not be acted upon by the Saudis and are consequently worthless. Therefore, by your own logic, your own opinion on whether other people’s opinions are worthless is also worthless, since your opinion is not going to be shared or acted upon. So what was the point of your post? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/78 "2015-01-19T09:29:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Well, all capital punishment may be barbaric, but some capital punishments are more barbaric than others. > > (ETA: As practiced in the United States lately, it doesn’t seem to be as minimally barbaric as it could be.) Yeah, this. Hey guys, can we stop pretending that just because the USA and Saudi Arabia both have the death penalty, they are somehow equivalent in their barbarism? Even on that single act? The most obvious difference might be due process - most death row inmates end up needing decades of processing before the state is sure, “All right, let’s kill this guy”. Not only that, but the law at least tries to be secular and fair - the death penalty is for things like murder, terrorism, and similar major crimes. In Saudi Arabia, one of the big ones if apostasy - leaving Islam. Regardless of how you feel about the death penalty, the way it is applied in the US and in SA do not come close to comparable. > [@straightdough](#): > > what would be interesting is if someone was into S&M/BDSM and, for a minor twist, also had an exhibitionist streak in them…now how would that public flogging make for a “punishment” to someone like that? more like a reward?? lol Have you ever gotten into BDSM? There’s a _biiiiig_ difference between sexy flogging and the shit that goes down in the Saudi legal system. It’s like the difference between someone carefully stepping on your balls, and someone stomping on them with cleats. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/79 "2015-01-19T14:21:28Z")
Folks used to show up in droves to watch hangings in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/80 "2015-01-19T14:28:36Z")
The math aspects were more my bad than the story itself. Since after the first flogging of 50 lashes, they postponed it the next week to allow wounds to heal; I figured it would take about a year to administrate the full 1,000 lashes if the trend continued instead of actually allowing 50 a week. Just didn’t word it right. A few were apathetic towards SA, at least in their initial posts, showing supposedly how similar the US was with them. It didn’t seem to be until a few called them out on it, did their subsequent posts started doing an about face. **JustinC,** I took your suggestion by going to online and also on youtube to see if any of these beheadings were there. There were plenty, I just didn’t bother to open up any of them. Besides the beheadings, it mentions that public stonings are also allowed, as well as crucifixions. Some are charged with serious offenses, but many others are quite petty and no offense at all in most societies, and just the expression of freethought. You just don’t insult religious authorities in SA or disagree with certain parts of their religion, which IMO, is one of the reasons of why it is so backwards and they will continue to remain so if this never changes. The majority of Straight Dopers would never make it over there if they expressed themselves the way they do here on this message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978.md?page=5)