# Just how backwards is Saudi Arabia? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978 "2015-01-16T14:47:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![straightdough](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@straightdough](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straightdough)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/81 "2015-01-19T18:59:49Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Have you ever gotten into BDSM? There’s a _biiiiig_ difference between sexy flogging and the shit that goes down in the Saudi legal system. It’s like the difference between someone carefully stepping on your balls, and someone stomping on them with cleats. i was thinking more of the type of people with underlying extreme mental issues who get into bdsm with no safe words and just want to be staight punished! lol ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/82 "2015-01-19T19:12:05Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Sadly for you I never said opinions were worthless, nor expressing them. And indeed said that everyone has the right to their opinions, and — a fairly unconditional — right to express them. Which is not currently a view espoused by western, let alone eastern, governments. > > However one liberal delusion is that by explaining the views one holds, interminably if need be, other dissenting actors will be obligated to change their erroneous ways, and conform to one’s will. I am pointing out they will not care and there’s no law of the universe that impels them to care. > If you personally want to put pressure on the Sauds, your best bet is to write endlessly to your legislators, maybe in crayon, demanding they impose an embargo on Saudi oil until they change their ways. > There was a qualifier in my statement about worthlessness of _some_ opinions. **Claverhouse** I’d like to offer a ‘+1’ to this eloquent comment. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/83 "2015-01-19T19:20:04Z")
Given the intellectual and moral quality of a lot of the blogosphere nowadays, maybe America could benefit from a few public whippings of bloggers too. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/84 "2015-01-20T00:08:32Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Given the intellectual and moral quality of a lot of the blogosphere nowadays, maybe America could benefit from a few public whippings of bloggers too. Oh, why stop with bloggers? I think some commenters on message boards could stand flogging too, Hector St. Claire. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/85 "2015-01-20T07:50:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So just an FYI. All the passages of text I highlighted in red are considered “backward” by people living in a modern 20th century post-industrial society. Just because “that’s the way they do things” doesn’t make it any less backward and listing a bunch of ways their justice system is draconian, brutal and arbitrary doesn’t really sell us on their lack of backwardness. > Sorry, but I don’t buy into this whole cultural relativity thing where all traditions and values are considered valid and should be respected and there is no right or wrong. Some traditions and values are objectively wrong and a step backward in the development of any civilization. This. And it doesn’t matter how “safe” you are from common criminals when you have to watch everything you say or do, lest you yourself be flogged, imprisoned, or condemned for inadvertently committing an offense against their system of laws. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/86 "2015-01-20T11:21:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yah, about that. I seem to remember the religious police forcing little girls back into a burning building because they didn’t have their head coverings on. Yup. > **[BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm)** > > Saudi Arabia's religious police are accused of stopping schoolgirls leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing Islamic dress. Happened just before my first visit to the place. People were pretty happy about it, in general, as it showed the higher code of ethics that Saudi Arabia operated to, compared to the decadent west. That same trip a group of people going to Deera Square for their Friday entertainment tried to carry me along with them, as they think it’s entertaining to see Westerner’s reactions to the show. SA is hideously backwards, there’s no two ways about it. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/87 "2015-01-20T14:14:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Oh, why stop with bloggers? I think some commenters on message boards could stand flogging too, Hector St. Claire. Oh, I agree. we’d probably disagree on what sort of people need flogging for their opinions, though. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Bragg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Stealth\_Bragg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Bragg)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/88 "2015-01-20T15:03:41Z")
Why do they persist with the capital punishment? If beheading, amputation, lashes, stoning etc worked there would be fewer and fewer cases over time wouldn’t there? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/89 "2015-01-20T15:28:34Z")
Well, not really. The criminal justice system is riddled with inefficiency and corruption. If you cut the wrong guy’s hand off… The violent crime rate is extremely low relative to most Western countries, though (even accounting for likely substantial underreporting.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/90 "2015-01-20T16:17:04Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Oh, I agree. we’d probably disagree on what sort of people need flogging for their opinions, though. Yes, perhaps it would be in both our enlightened self interests to dispense with the flogging idea entirely. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/91 "2015-01-20T17:30:41Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > What lack of relevance ? Singapore caning ? American whipping ? Both as nasty as Saudi flogging. Ummm, what? Singapore-style caning is apparently a fairly brutal experience but it’s nowhere near the same league as Saudi flogging. For a start it’s limited to 25 strokes per sentence, and secondly a half-inch wooden rod across the rump doesn’t slice the victim up in the same way as a whip. As far as I know no-one has ever claimed it’s a life-threatening experience for a reasonably healthy adult, whereas flogging most certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/92 "2015-01-20T19:21:20Z")
How much more backwards can a country be when a person can be killed for abandoning the state sanctioned religion? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/93 "2015-01-20T19:40:13Z")
It’s not \*much \*more arbitrary than putting people in prison for smoking weed, is it ? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/94 "2015-01-20T23:02:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not \*much \*more arbitrary than putting people in prison for smoking weed, is it ? Well, that’s still not in the same league as flogging someone to shreds for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/95 "2015-01-20T23:32:43Z")
True, but then they seem to have much lower standards for state-sponsored violence in general, so. I mean, I don’t condone their way of doing things, not by a long shot. And you couldn’t pay me enough to set foot in Saudi Arabia. But it’s internally consistent, it’s not especially irrational… and it seems to work for them. For given values of “work”. Besides, 10 or 20 whiplashes ? Fucks up your day for sure, and maybe you take up to 6 months to recuperate even. But 2+ years in jail, when you’re 20 or 30, that’s your entire life passing you by - enough time to learn the convict’s way of doing or resolving things, letting \*that \*ruin your shit when you’re let out. Enough time for your children and family to leave you behind, for your friends to move on, for your employers to forget all about you… It’s not harmless at all. It just \*looks \*cleaner. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/96 "2015-01-23T09:31:04Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > \ > **JustinC,** I took your suggestion by going to online and also on youtube to see if any of these beheadings were there. There were plenty, I just didn’t bother to open up any of them. Besides the beheadings, it mentions that public stonings are also allowed, as well as crucifixions. Some are charged with serious offenses, but many others are quite petty and no offense at all in most societies, and just the expression of freethought. **You just don’t insult religious authorities in SA or disagree with certain parts of their religion** , which IMO, is one of the reasons of why it is so backwards and they will continue to remain so if this never changes. > > The majority of Straight Dopers would never make it over there if they expressed themselves the way they do here on this message board. My bolding. Quite correct, you _do not_ insult Islam in the KSA, unless you’re completely out of your mind or online in an anonymous forum, on a computer which can’t be traced back to you, and preferably not physically in the KSA. I’ve heard about stonings and crucifictions, although I’m not sure if they happen in Riyadh or some or the _really_ ‘traditional’ areas outside of the capital. You’re at a serious risk of carjacking in the outer areas. I heard about a guy (in the south, maybe Abha - which is up high and very green) who shot his son dead, for bringing shame on the family. He confessed, was brought to court, and the judge thought it was okay and he got let off. There was a news report a couple of years ago of two guys, dressed in uniform, at a security check who stopped an American and his daughter. They raped the daughter and beat the father to within an inch of his life. The authorities found them and they were beheaded pretty quickly. Crime, generally, in Saudi as well as a lot of the ME is very rare compared with many countries. People date (both sexes), drink, do drugs, drive recklessly, practice other religions, and God knows what else, but they do it either at home or out in the desert. Publicly doing any of those is pretty dumb. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/97 "2015-01-23T15:06:34Z")
Backwards? How about we call it what it is. Barbaric. Savage works too. I can’t imagine anyone surviving that kind of abuse for a year. All because he had an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978/98 "2015-01-23T20:39:46Z")
Drives me up the wall that they’re our friends but folks are raising holy hell over warming up relations with Cuba. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-backwards-is-saudi-arabia/709978.md?page=4)