# Just how bad a dictator was Napoleon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206 "2012-12-06T17:51:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/1 "2012-12-06T17:51:23Z")
We remember his military genius, but how was he as a ruler? Certainly he didn’t set out to destroy entire religious or ethnic groups like Hitler did, but just how heavy-handed was he in his governance of the French, and of the countries he conquered? How would we rate him today in terms of respect for the rule of law, free speech, freedom of religion, etc.? Would a French peasant have been any better or worse off than his, say, British, Italian, Hessian, Polish or Russian counterparts in the Napoleonic era? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/2 "2012-12-06T18:32:15Z")
Today we would rank him as one of the more benevolent dictators (as far as dictators go): he had a large security apparatus for the time, but compared to today’s dictatorships, they didn’t do a lot of killing and arbitrary detentions. But compared to the rest of Europe, he was ahead of his time, especially in terms of freedom of religion. Jews and Muslims were treated with equality (by him at least: there was still a lot of prejudice amongst the French public,) and all religions were treated better than under the Revolution. One way in which he was both worse than the Revolution and many non-middle-east dictatorships was the status of women: he rolled back what rights they had gained during the Revolution. The French peasant would have been better under Napoleon than under the previous French regimes, either due to oppression and lack of rights, or due to risk of arbitrary slaughter. I don’t think a comparison to other countries is meaningful because their peasants lot was largely determined by economic factors (like in Russia and England, not to say that Russian peasants weren’t oppressed,) or the lack of cohesion in the country causing opportunities for chaos (like in a lot of Italy.) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/3 "2012-12-06T19:04:48Z")
I always kind of thought a lot of that reputation is the residue of early 19th century British propaganda. Obviously, the French think highly of the man, but I don’t know about elsewhere. He doesn’t look so bad on paper with 200 years hindsight, I’ll say. I think a lot of it was that he was a conqueror, and generally speaking conquerors aren’t looked upon favorably, even if they are bringing improvements and a higher standard of living. Sort of a “it may be a crappy standard of living, but it’s OUR crappy standard of living.” situation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/4 "2012-12-06T19:21:41Z")
Depends on where. You would not want to be Spanish or Portuguese. The French occupation of the Iberian penninsula resembled in places somewhat the Nazi occupation of Eastern Europe - widescale killings as “reprisals”, for example. Part of the problem was the French habit of attempting to live off of the countryside. With very large armies, this resulted in large-scale hardship - starvation for the local peasantry. This in turn provoked pesant uprisings (the term “guerrilla” dates to this era), which in turn lead to further reprisals, etc. The English were in the position of actually being able to pay for the food they wanted - including in France itself when they got there. “Bringing a higher standard of living”? I’m not aware that that really happened anywhere, other than in theory. Part of that may not be Nappy’s fault - he was generally always at war - but the “benefits” of French occupation of (say) Spain to the average person would be hard to establish, even though the Spanish monarchy was a decayed and inefficient autocracy and the monarchy of Joseph was quite “enlightened” - on paper, that is. It is hard to appreciate the benefits of enlightened government when it is imposed by foreign troops who steal your food, rape you, and murder you if you fight back against this. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/5 "2012-12-06T20:33:19Z")
If you’ve got the time and the interest, the “Napoleon 101” podcast presents an unashamedly pro-Napoleonic view–indeed, it’s generally well over the line into cheerleading. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/6 "2012-12-06T20:44:58Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > If you’ve got the time and the interest, the “Napoleon 101” podcast presents an unashamedly pro-Napoleonic view–indeed, it’s generally well over the line into cheerleading. No, thanks - I’m kinda into historical accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/7 "2012-12-06T20:49:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But compared to the rest of Europe, he was ahead of his time… Definitely true, in terms of causing the premature deaths of a significant percentage of his fellow Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/8 "2012-12-06T20:51:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > One way in which he was both worse than the Revolution and many non-middle-east dictatorships was the status of women: he rolled back what rights they had gained during the Revolution. In a hugely dick move Napoleon re-established slavery in overseas France and [tried to re-enslave](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A_o-nU5s2U&t=7m34s) the rebellious Haitians. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/9 "2012-12-06T21:36:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > No, thanks - I’m kinda into historical accuracy. Curious: Is there a general problem with the podcast, or is it that they’re so pro-Nappy that they wind up being revisionists? I enjoyed listening to it, and would like to know if my understanding of the period is now filled with Major Historical Errors. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/10 "2012-12-06T23:05:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Today we would rank him as one of the more benevolent dictators (as far as dictators go): he had a large security apparatus for the time, but compared to today’s dictatorships, they didn’t do a lot of killing and arbitrary detentions. He also was personally against torture (at a time where it was a fairly popular pastime), both as a means of punishment and as a means of information gathering. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/11 "2012-12-06T23:36:18Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > If you’ve got the time and the interest, the “Napoleon 101” podcast presents an unashamedly pro-Napoleonic view–indeed, it’s generally well over the line into cheerleading. Eh, the cheerleading didn’t bother me, but I gave up on it after the two hosts spent more and more time talking about the Napoleon podcast and less and less time talking about Napoleon. Too bad to, as it starts out promising, and Napoleon is a good subject for that sort of historical podcasting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/12 "2012-12-06T23:45:06Z")
At the start of his rule, many liberals all over Europe had great hopes for Napoleon, viewing him as the great liberator, the final successful embodiment of the ideals of the Revolution, bringing enlightenment and modernity wherever he conquered. (And there was something to that.) But most of them gradually and reluctantly became disillusioned with him. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/13 "2012-12-07T00:11:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At the start of his rule, many liberals all over Europe had great hopes for Napoleon, viewing him as the great liberator, the final successful embodiment of the ideals of the Revolution, bringing enlightenment and modernity wherever he conquered. (And there was something to that.) But most of them gradually and reluctantly became disillusioned with him. One of those Liberals was Beethoven: > **[Beethoven's Eroica: Keeping Score | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/keepingscore/beethoven-eroica.html)** > > Keeping Score investigates the compelling stories behind and intertwined with classical music. Regardless of your musical background, the San Francisco Symphony and Michael Tilson Thomas are ready to conduct you through the fascinating history and... > [@](#): > > By late 1803, Beethoven had sketched out his new epic symphony, the Eroica. It was inspired by the ideals of the French Revolution and dedicated to its hero, who then seemed to be the great liberator of the people: Napoleon. > > Beethoven thought of himself as a free spirit, and he admired the principles of freedom and equality embodied by the French Revolution. He thought he recognized in Napoleon a hero of the people and a champion of freedom, which was why he intended to dedicate a huge new symphony to him. > > But when Beethoven heard the news in late 1804 that Napoleon had crowned himself Emperor of France, he was disgusted. “He’s just a rascal like all the others,” he exclaimed. > > Beethoven violently erased Napoleon’s name from his manuscript—so forcefully, in fact, that he erased his way right through the paper, leaving holes in the title page. > > So this revolutionary piece of music that was originally to be The Bonaparte Symphony became simply Eroica—the heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/14 "2012-12-07T08:42:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Part of the problem was the French habit of attempting to live off of the countryside. With very large armies, this resulted in large-scale hardship - starvation for the local peasantry. This in turn provoked pesant uprisings (the term “guerrilla” dates to this era), which in turn lead to further reprisals, etc. To be fair, this is an age old habit of armies, not something introduced by the French. The phrase \*bellum se ipsum alet \* (the war will feed itself) dates back to Cato the Elder. Famine and disease had long followed in the wake of armies; the population of the German states dropped by a third during the 30 Years War for example. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/15 "2012-12-07T10:16:20Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > To be fair, this is an age old habit of armies, not something introduced by the French. The phrase \*bellum se ipsum alet \* (the war will feed itself) dates back to Cato the Elder. Famine and disease had long followed in the wake of armies; the population of the German states dropped by a third during the 30 Years War for example. The French did quite a bit more foraging on the march than other armies. This was a semi-deliberate strategy of Napoleon, it reduced the baggage train considerably. Which, in turn, increased his marching speed. This advantage in speed was pivotal in most of his campaigns. Get to the enemy while they are not yet assembled and attack and defeat the enemy piecemeal with superior troop concentration. Foraging was forbidden in allied territory though. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/16 "2012-12-07T10:17:19Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > To be fair, this is an age old habit of armies, not something introduced by the French. The phrase \*bellum se ipsum alet \* (the war will feed itself) dates back to Cato the Elder. Famine and disease had long followed in the wake of armies; the population of the German states dropped by a third during the 30 Years War for example. Hence the Third Amendment I believe, where “quartering” needs to be understood not just as “sleeping on the premises” but also “nicking all the food and small valuables, raping all the daughters and slaughtering all the livestock on a lark before moving on because fuck you that’s why”. The founders sanitized the language. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/17 "2012-12-07T10:36:21Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Definitely true, in terms of causing the premature deaths of a significant percentage of his fellow Europeans. I also think it is a touch unfair to typify Napoleon as a conquering dictator. It was France that was attacked after all. It was the surrounding dictators (also known as ‘kings’) that wanted to destroy the new democracy. Napoleon, the emperor with a vast territory, was born out of the wars to _defend_ France. While he did become a dictator, after 1805 he tried to prevent any more wars, it wasn’t him that started them. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/18 "2012-12-07T12:28:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > To be fair, this is an age old habit of armies, not something introduced by the French. The phrase \*bellum se ipsum alet \* (the war will feed itself) dates back to Cato the Elder. Famine and disease had long followed in the wake of armies; the population of the German states dropped by a third during the 30 Years War for example. > [@Latro](#): > > The French did quite a bit more foraging on the march than other armies. > This was a semi-deliberate strategy of Napoleon, it reduced the baggage train considerably. Which, in turn, increased his marching speed. > This advantage in speed was pivotal in most of his campaigns. Get to the enemy while they are not yet assembled and attack and defeat the enemy piecemeal with superior troop concentration. > > Foraging was forbidden in allied territory though. I know that Sun Tzu advises living off the enemy countryside in _The Art of War._ I need to reread it, but I believe that he advocated taking supplies for only a limited time, and to depend on foraging both to reduce the baggage train and to reduce the resources available to the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/19 "2012-12-07T13:26:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At the start of his rule, many liberals all over Europe had great hopes for Napoleon, viewing him as the great liberator, the final successful embodiment of the ideals of the Revolution, bringing enlightenment and modernity wherever he conquered. (And there was something to that.) But most of them gradually and reluctantly became disillusioned with him. Abel Gance still believed Napoleon was the successful culmination of the French Revolution, a century later. His epic _Napoleon_ shows the Ghosts of the Revolution hailing Napoleon, a scene which brings weird reaction from modern filmgoers. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206/20 "2012-12-07T13:32:40Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I know that Sun Tzu advises living off the enemy countryside in _The Art of War._ I need to reread it, but I believe that he advocated taking supplies for only a limited time, and to depend on foraging both to reduce the baggage train and to reduce the resources available to the enemy. Yes, weakening the enemy homeland was a part of this strategy. In the words of one well-known advocate of this practice, “War is hell.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-bad-a-dictator-was-napoleon/643206.md?page=2)