### Author:  [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/61 "2023-07-23T02:23:22Z")
Simply from this paragraph in the linked article,
> San Francisco has become the prime example of what downtowns shouldn’t look like: vacant, crime-ridden and in various stages of decay. But in truth, it’s just one of many cities across the U.S. whose downtowns are reckoning with a post-pandemic wake-up call: diversify or die.
… it sounds like they were describing the Detroit of 25 years ago, not San Francisco.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/62 "2023-07-23T02:56:41Z")
> [@Bullitt](#):
>
> … it sounds like they were describing the Detroit of 25 years ago, not San Francisco.
It was Little Rock before they invested in the River Market district in 1996.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/63 "2023-07-23T12:39:05Z")
A Walgreens store preventing shoplifting:
>
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### Author:  [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/64 "2023-07-23T14:31:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> > [@Bullitt](#):
> >
> > … it sounds like they were describing the Detroit of 25 years ago, not San Francisco.
>
> It was Little Rock before they invested in the River Market district in 1996.
Did Comerica Park help things?
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### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/65 "2023-07-23T14:54:36Z")
Here’s how Safeway is approaching it:
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/safeway-san-francisco-theft-shoplift-18204454.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/safeway-san-francisco-theft-shoplift-18204454.php)
_A San Francisco [Safeway](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/S-F-Safeway-adds-barriers-to-deter-shoplifing-16675205.php) store has installed receipt scanners and security gates at self-service checkout kiosks in an apparent attempt to deter shoplifting._
_Shoppers using the self-service lines at Safeway in the Western Addition now have to scan their receipts on an automated plastic gate before they can exit the store. The additional security measure appears to be an attempt to prevent theft._
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/66 "2023-07-23T15:46:29Z")
Why not just eliminate the self checkouts?
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/67 "2023-07-23T16:12:59Z")
Why not eliminate self-serve? Have everything behind the counter. So the customer either orders stuff on his app or gives the order to the staff–and the staff go and pick the stuff. The customer pays and the staff give the customer the stuff he ordered.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/68 "2023-07-23T16:21:35Z")
We’re going back to the golden age of dry goods stores!
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/69 "2023-07-23T16:43:29Z")
As always, it’s labor costs. If the public is honest, stores don’t need massive amounts of labor to keep them honest. If the public is dishonest, the stores do need massive amounts of labor (and automation) to try to minimize their theft losses, net of the extra labor costs.
It is not uncommon for “shrinkage” to get so extreme that no amount of price increases or anti-theft measures can make the store profitable or profitable enough. Then it closes.
As to chain stores like the Safeway and Walgreens mentioned, they have certain standards for how much security and what not they’re willing to pay for. And how much shrinkage they’re willing to tolerate. Once a location gets beyond those standards, it’s done. Whether or not that particlar store was still slightly profitable, from the corporations’ POV it was no longer worthwhile to pursue. Buh-bye.
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### Author:  [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/70 "2023-07-24T03:11:09Z")
not to mention that when misdemeanor level was raised to, I believe, $950, cops can’t be bothered since DA will not waste their time to prosecute
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/71 "2023-07-24T04:21:13Z")
If it is under $950 it is a misdemeanor, over $950 a felony. The sentence for a misdemeanor is up to 6 months in jail or $1,000 fine. A 6 month jail sentence would be adequate deterrence.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2023, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/72 "2023-07-24T05:33:23Z")
> [@fedman1](#):
>
> not to mention that when misdemeanor level was raised to, I believe, $950, cops can’t be bothered since DA will not waste their time to prosecute
This must be a weird local thing, because the raised felony threshold is still one of the ten lowest in the country.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2023, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/73 "2023-07-24T12:32:06Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> If it is under $950 it is a misdemeanor, over $950 a felony. The sentence for a misdemeanor is up to 6 months in jail or $1,000 fine. A 6 month jail sentence would be adequate deterrence.
I know in my state it would take the combined efforts of Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed to get the maximum sentence on a misdemeanor. Any jail time is extremely rare. Initially you are released on a summons for a later court date. I’ll bet you 10 Doper bucks they are not handing out 6 month sentences in SF.
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### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/74 "2023-07-25T01:47:25Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> Why not just eliminate the self checkouts?
or the whole store?
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### Author:  [@doc481](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doc481)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/75 "2023-07-25T01:58:30Z")
What’s happening with the real-estate market? Heard the commercial property is down what about folks homes? I’m thinking of some of those beautiful older houses I think they’re called painted ladies?
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/76 "2023-07-25T03:21:05Z")
> [@doc481](#):
>
> Heard the commercial property is down what about folks homes?
Oh my, yes. Down 8.7% from June 2022- June 2023, now a mere average of $1.4 million . A Painted Lady sold last year for $3.55 million, but maybe this year you could have gotten it for a mere $3.24 million 😉. But probably not - those homes don’t drop in value.
SF is actually currently leveled off the last few months. On the one hand higher interest rates and insanely high prices suppressing sales. On the other low inventory and insanely well-heeled buyers keeping sales moving.
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### Author:  [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/77 "2023-07-25T10:16:51Z")
Those painted ladies are on the east side of Alamo Square, on Steiner Street.
[https://maps.app.goo.gl/1T2qxY2eoRDhmpA48](https://maps.app.goo.gl/1T2qxY2eoRDhmpA48)
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/78 "2023-07-25T11:19:07Z")
Yes, the friend we visited in SF in April said her home value has crashed. Now instead of 7X what she paid for it in 2001 it’s only 6.5X. This was Sunset. Seemed to be predominantly Chinese residents (I don’t mean Asian, the language I heard everywhere was Mandarin).
She was serious that this was a catastrophic drop.
The neighborhood had no homeless people that we saw and we didn’t see or smell any human waste there or in the Fisherman’s Wharf area. There were a LOT fewer tourists there compared to the last time we were there 18 years ago.
Specifically the Walgreens we went to looked quite normal.
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/79 "2023-07-25T16:36:30Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#):
>
> This was Sunset. Seemed to be predominantly Chinese residents…
>
> The neighborhood had no homeless people that we saw and we didn’t see or smell any human waste there or in the Fisherman’s Wharf area.
Yeah, I lived in the Sunset back in the early-mid 90’s. Even back then it had already largely transitioned from a traditionally (and self-consciously) Irish neighborhood to a substantially Chinese one. It definitely has an overall Asian plurality (~43% in 2022).
It’s one of those primarily residential areas of SF with very few homeless. Looking it up I conveniently [found an article](https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/04/homeless-at-the-beach-priced-out-locals-wait-for-housing-at-the-edge-of-san-francisco/) from a couple months ago stating that of an estimated ~7,000 homeless people in SF, all of 81 are in the Sunset.
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### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-badly-is-downtown-san-francisco-doing/984775/80 "2023-07-26T23:43:29Z")
Well, here’s some news to buck the trend:
[Commercial real estate in San Francisco finally gets good news in office demand data](https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/san-francisco-office-demand-vacancy-18262303.php)
_The growing demand has been driven in part by the explosion of new artificial intelligence companies, VTS CEO Nick Romito told [Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-25/san-francisco-s-office-demand-surges-with-tenants-on-the-hunt?srnd=premium&in_source=embedded-checkout-banner), which first wrote about the report. Though a [new San Francisco-based AI startup](https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/tech-names-startups-san-francisco-18209618.php) seems to emerge every week, much of the nascent technology’s development appears to be centered south of the city at Mountain View-based [Google](https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/google-mountain-view-development-headquarters-18156676.php), Menlo Park-based [Meta](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/facebook-meta-leases-sf-office-17729056.php) and Santa Clara-based [Nvidia](https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/nvidia-stock-jump-nets-ceo-jensen-huang-billions-18119845.php)._
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