# Just how dense is Diogenes the Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749 "2011-03-07T04:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/1 "2011-03-07T04:30:27Z")
In this thread he actually mistakes me for Valteron. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=599629](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=599629) I’m a Muslim, have an Arabic username, and have gotten into several huge pissing contests with Valteron because Val has been a virulent anti-Muslim bigot and Dio and I got into a fight over him classifying to brave Muslim academics as “Islamophobic douchebags” so unless he’s even more ignorant that I thought or suffering from Alzheimer’s he should have recognized that I’m not Val. Nevertheless, he confused me, a Muslim American with a rabid Canadian bigot. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539915&postcount=79](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539915&postcount=79) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539933&postcount=86](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539933&postcount=86) Good lord, he really does live in a fantasy world in which he ignores reality and ignores facts that interfere with his vision of what the world is. That said, I should say I wasn’t offended by his confusing me with Val, it actually made me laugh at him revealing just how ignorant he is. It was almost as funny as watching him getting spanked and humiliated by Champion-of-Truth(hardly a rocket scientist) when Champ made him so mad he lost the ability to spell and was sent running from the thread like a whipped cur with his tail tucked firmly between his legs and his cheeks red with humiliation. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/2 "2011-03-07T04:49:24Z")
It’s x-day so it must be another Dio pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/3 "2011-03-07T04:51:23Z")
I think that your assumption that he read your posts before he responded to them was your first mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/4 "2011-03-07T05:09:01Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I think that your assumption that he read your posts before he responded to them was your first mistake. You’re probably correct. As someone else said Dio is in denial of reality. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/5 "2011-03-07T06:04:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re probably correct. > > As someone else said Dio is in denial of reality. 😕You’re ruining my line, you bastard you. I said he had “reality on ignore”. 😉 But seriously, of all the reasons to pit **Dio** , doing so for one of the few times he actually admitted making a mistake is not what I would have chosen. Especially from the rich array he’s strewn before us. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/6 "2011-03-07T06:12:57Z")
Yeah, this is lame. He suffered from an instance of mistaken identity, which he then recognized and acknowledged. I’ve done it before. You’re in a fast-moving debate with multiple people, and you mix up one poster for another, and respond to the wrong person. You then realize your error (or have it pointed out to you by someone else), and make the appropriate corrections. Big fucking deal. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/7 "2011-03-07T06:46:13Z")
Of all the things you could pit someone for you choose to pit him for making a simple mistake (one that he owned up to when corrected)? Congratulations, you’ve joined the ranks of people who’ve pitted Dio. It’s a super exclusive club around here. Was it worth it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/8 "2011-03-07T06:58:58Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Of all the things you could pit someone for you choose to pit him for making a simple mistake (one that he owned up to when corrected)? > > Congratulations, you’ve joined the ranks of people who’ve pitted Dio. It’s a super exclusive club around here. Was it worth it? Confusing myself, a Muslim, with a virulently anti-Muslim bigot is pretty huge. It’s like confusing Finn and Redfury. Beyond that, he actually hasn’t admitted to making that mistake. When I pointed out he’d claimed I was Valteron, his response was. > [@](#): > > No, I said I thought you’d claimed you lived in Canada because I mozed up one of your posts with \*_Valteron’s_. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153) C’mon how can that kind of hairsplitting be viewed as anything other than dense. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/9 "2011-03-07T06:59:29Z")
Yeah, I gotta admit, this one of those very few instances where **mhendo** actually knows what he’s talking about. (Then again, the data _was_ right there in black & white.) Anyway, no big deal. **Dio** screwed up, admitted it, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/10 "2011-03-07T07:03:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Confusing myself, a Muslim, with a virulently anti-Muslim bigot is pretty huge. It’s like confusing Finn and Redfury. > > Beyond that, he actually hasn’t admitted to making that mistake. > > When I pointed out he’d claimed I was Valteron, his response was. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153) > > C’mon how can that kind of hairsplitting be viewed as anything other than dense. [Post #86.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539933&postcount=86) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/11 "2011-03-07T07:05:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, I gotta admit, this one of those very few instances where **mhendo** actually knows what he’s talking about. Along with all the times when i describe you as a dishonest, full-of-shit retard. I definitely know what i’m talking about on those occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/12 "2011-03-07T07:12:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Post #86.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13539933&postcount=86) Yes, but you notice in post 153, he turned around and tried to pretend he hadn’t said I was Valteron. > [@](#): > > **Me** this is the third massive error you’ve made on this thread alone. > > You’ve A)claimed I was Valteron B)claimed that Haq was a Christian when the wiki page you quote from says he claimed he was Muslim at the time of the attack and now C)have claimed that a gallup poll asks people if they support “a Jewish state in Israel”. > [@](#): > > **Dio** > No, I said I thought you’d claimed you lived in Canada because I mozed up one of your posts with \*_Valteron’s_. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13540930&postcount=153) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/13 "2011-03-07T07:47:58Z")
I think **Diogenes** has a lot of valuable stuff to say and is pretty knowledgeable, especially on matters like religion. His problem as a debater, though, is that he regularly overstates his position. It’s a common thing to do, especially if you get overinvested in the argument. Take the thread that was linked to in the OP, for instance. **Diogenes’s** original argument was that domestic Muslim radicalism isn’t a threat in the US. This is an eminently defensible position, and personally, I agree with it. When he was challenged, though, he moved from that position to the position that “there’s never been a homegrown radical Islamic terrorist in the US”. That’s obviously a much harder position to defend, and I think both I and **Ibn Warraq** were able to show it wasn’t true. Unfortunately, at that point, instead of retreating back to the more defensible original position, he decided he was going to die on the new hill he staked out for himself, and the debate became a matter of moved goalposts and dueling definitions. I think this happens a lot, and it hurts him as a debater…both the tendency to overreach and the disinclination to back down. It’s a shame, because he is knowledgeable and I think if he could be a little more tentative and cautious in his assertions he’d both have more fun and be more persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/14 "2011-03-07T07:58:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Along with all the times when i describe you as a dishonest, full-of-shit retard. > > I definitely know what i’m talking about on those occasions. Apparently not. I’ve challenged you I don’t know how many times to prove these assertions of yours that I’m dishonest. And your response? Bupkis. Every time. And as for being full of shit, I wouldn’t be talking if I were you. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, if someone gave you an enema you could be buried in a matchbox. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/15 "2011-03-07T08:24:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Apparently not. I’ve challenged you I don’t know how many times to prove these assertions of yours that I’m dishonest. And your response? Bupkis. Every time. Your posts are my cite. I’ve explained it dozens of times. The fact that you refuse to believe it, and remain mired in your own delusions and dishonesty, is your problem, and not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/16 "2011-03-07T08:28:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Confusing myself, a Muslim, with a virulently anti-Muslim bigot is pretty huge. It’s like confusing Finn and Redfury. … Or Jonah Goldberg and Juan Cole. Do we need a link? No I think the point is made. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/17 "2011-03-07T08:55:01Z")
While I can easily guess the personal reasons why **Dio** confusing you with **Valteron** in the process of attempting to score a debate point would rankle, these things just happen when we don’t have faces to attach to the written names. I didn’t read it as malicious. BTW, when did **Valteron** accuse you of practicing Taqiyya? I’d like a laugh. I would have thought that actual argument that you and **Captain Amazing** were having with **Dio** would have irritated you more, and not unjustifiably. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/18 "2011-03-07T09:28:27Z")
Well, you rather foolishly let yourself get pulled into orbit around him so… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/19 "2011-03-07T09:38:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, you rather foolishly let yourself get pulled into orbit around him so… Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749/20 "2011-03-07T10:56:51Z")
Even for **Dio** , that was a spectacular whoopsie. I agree with **Captain Amazing** - **Dio** is the rhetorical equivalent of Leeroy Jenkins, charging into battle without hesitation or plan, leaving those nominally on the same side behind to marvel at the chaos. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dense-is-diogenes-the-cynic/573749.md?page=2)