# Just how dependent is Israel upon the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128 "2011-01-10T19:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/61 "2011-01-12T03:42:33Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Indeed. A good part of that spending goes towards Israel _not_ blowing people up. Like staying out of Gulf 1, and not bombing the hell out of Iran now. Both were in its relative short-term interest. Oh but that “let’s you and him fight”/Brer Rabbit argument gets old after awhile especially when the target is not one that only serves U.S. interests to attack. The other intangible no one’s mentioned that might make the aid more costly/valuable is the annoying (at best) tendency that U.S. military technology “sold” to Israel has a strange proclivity for showing up in China, Iran, etc. Selling that stuff on serves the dual purpose of generating revenue for Israel and putting pressure on the U.S. to develop ever-better technologies to ensure superiority over the bad actors Israel leake/sold to (and in turn, to keep giving each new superweapon to Israel). It’s like funding an arms war with yourself and god knows how much additional cost that imposes. Someone mentioned “mutual defense.” That’s a non-starter, Israel can’t/doesnt undertake to defend the U.S., other than if you meant Mossad occasionall takes a break from spying on U.S. and passes on some good intel, which I am sure does happen. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/62 "2011-01-12T03:46:26Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The other intangible no one’s mentioned that might make the aid more costly/valuable is the annoying (at best) tendency that U.S. military technology “sold” to Israel has a strange proclivity for showing up in China, Iran, etc. Selling that stuff on serves the dual purpose of generating revenue for Israel and putting pressure on the U.S. to develop ever-better technologies to ensure superiority over the bad actors Israel leake/sold to (and in turn, to keep giving each new superweapon to Israel). It’s like funding an arms war with yourself and god knows how much additional cost that imposes. Could you provide a little background on that? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/63 "2011-01-12T04:06:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Could you provide a little background on that? Yes. See if these work (I’m mobile at the moment). > **[US acts over Israeli arms sales to China](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel?cat=world&type=article)** > > The United States has imposed sanctions on Israel after a dispute over Israel's sale of drones - unmanned aerial vehicles - to China, according to news reports. > **[Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons?cat=world&type=article)** > > Exclusive: Secret apartheid-era papers give first official evidence of Israeli nuclear weapons I’m pretty sure some post-Khomeni-era sales of U.S. materiel by Israel came out in the Iran-Contra mess. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/64 "2011-01-12T04:21:52Z")
Those links worked. Thanks, this is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/65 "2011-01-12T06:10:09Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Yes. > > See if these work (I’m mobile at the moment). > > [US acts over Israeli arms sales to China | Israel | The Guardian](http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel?cat=world&type=article) > > [Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons | Israel | The Guardian](http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons?cat=world&type=article) > > I’m pretty sure some post-Khomeni-era sales of U.S. materiel by Israel came out in the Iran-Contra mess. You may/not know that U.S. diplomatic/military policy has been that Israel has to be guaranteed a “qualitative edge” over any possible Muslim adversary. This creates percerse incentives for Israel to periodically give away the qualitative edge, perhaps quite lucratively, to create the conditions in which they need a new re-boot of technology/aid. This also subserves their aim of tryng to erode any American holdback (the U.S. would like to give Israel about 85% of what it has, israel would like about 105%, so spying and leaking to make up the difference are par for the course). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/66 "2011-01-12T14:12:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Unable to accept how thoroughly wrong you are, you’re now actually claiming that three billion in military aid is totaly unlike three billion in aid plus actual physical troops for military aid. It doesn’t count and, oooh look, shiny! > > You’re not fooling anybody. > But you are providing a very good example of the shit that normally goes on in such debates. Proven wrong, and that another nation gets the same dollar amount of military aid that Israel gets, plus tens of thousands of US soldiers themselves, you try to spin it so hard that your argument has become gyroscopically stable. Nice one, that. _There is no “same dollar about of military aid”_. The cost of stationing US troops in South Korea is $3 billion. If you spent one tenth as much time addressing the actual argument as you do claiming you’ve already won it, we might get somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/67 "2011-01-12T14:19:45Z")
The US is not giving South Korea $3 billion. I’ll even re-post your own NYT quote so you can read it: > [@](#): > > The leaders of South Korea know this, and they send their representatives to international hotels here to tell American reporters soothingly how much they value **the American military presence, which costs American taxpayers about $3 billion a year**. My bolding. Now please shut up. If you want to argue that direct military support is equivalent, then sure, I’ll buy that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/68 "2011-01-12T14:35:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _There is no “same dollar about of military aid”_. We spend roughly 3 billion dollars a year on military aid to Israel. We also spend roughly 3 billion dollars a year on military aid to South Korea, but that’s totally different because if it wasn’t, you’d have to admit you were wrong. You can, if you wish, pretzel your argument further and claim that the roughly three billion dollars we spend a year in order to aid South Korea militarily is anything but military aid. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The US is not giving South Korea $3 billion. I’ll even re-post your own NYT quote so you can read it I’ve pointed out to you, twice now, that it’s a rather blatantly silly tactic to claim that someone hasn’t read something, when not only have they obviously read it, but it proves you wrong. The facts show that we provide military aid to South Korea. That military aid costs us roughly three billion. That means you were wrong when you alleged that the roughly three billion in military aid which we give to Israel is somehow unique. Just like your first attempt to dodge having to admit you were wrong was based on trying to shift the term from “military aid” to “financial aid”. But it’s okay. We spend the same amount to aid South Korea militarily as we do for Israel. And that’s totally different. (Because otherwise you’d have to say "Oops, guess I was wrong.) QED. (If you really want to try to continue dodging the fact that you were wrong, you can point out that the US has a specific category called Foreign Military Financing in the Congressional budget. You can then use that to dodge the fact that despite how it’s budgeted the dollar amount we spend on Israel for military aid is equivalent to that which we spend on South Korea for military aid. Just, whatever you do, don’t admit you were wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/69 "2011-01-12T14:45:31Z")
The people reading this are welcome to draw their own conclusions. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/70 "2011-01-12T15:18:09Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Yes. > > See if these work (I’m mobile at the moment). > > [US acts over Israeli arms sales to China | Israel | The Guardian](http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel?cat=world&type=article) > > [Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons | Israel | The Guardian](http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons?cat=world&type=article) > > I’m pretty sure some post-Khomeni-era sales of U.S. materiel by Israel came out in the Iran-Contra mess. The second link details the alleged offer to sell nukes to the south africans in the 70s, before US technological involvement, and so does not support your thesis. The problem here is that the US also uses Israel as a conduit for sales that are in the US’s alleged best interest, and so at its behest; Iran-Contra being an example … in the murky world of international arms sales, often nothing is as it seems on the surface. It is hard to keep track of who is deceiving whom. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/71 "2011-01-12T15:27:11Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You may/not know that U.S. diplomatic/military policy has been that Israel has to be guaranteed a “qualitative edge” over any possible Muslim adversary. This creates percerse incentives for Israel to periodically give away the qualitative edge, perhaps quite lucratively, to create the conditions in which they need a new re-boot of technology/aid. This also subserves their aim of tryng to erode any American holdback (the U.S. would like to give Israel about 85% of what it has, israel would like about 105%, so spying and leaking to make up the difference are par for the course). I think this is overestimating the planning that goes into making sales. The best example of Israel ‘selling on’ US tech is to China. China is not among Israel’s potential enemies. The US policy is only to preserve Israel’s technological edge over its neighbours. If China develops killer robots or whatever, that does not obligate the US to sell Israel super-killer-robots. Most of the cases dealing with “selling on” deal with examples where Israel is attempting to boost its own armaments industry, by covertly “enhancing” what it is selling with secret US tech. The example of the drones is the best known. To my mind the best explaination is simple greed, to make the luctrative sale, not some elaborate plan to force the US to boost its transfer to Israel, to ‘engage in an arms race with themselves’. That assumes the Israelis are both too smart and too stupid. Too smart, to concoct such a wide-ranging conspiracy, spanning many years and different governments; too stupid, not to realize that it would inevitably be discovered and damage the very relations on which the transfer is predicated in the first place … ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/72 "2011-01-12T15:35:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The people reading this are welcome to draw their own conclusions. Ah, the traditional summation of those who are right on the facts, and could really prove it too, they just don’t wanna, is all. Honest. Probably your best course of action. I do admit, I was looking forward to you trying to explain how spending three billion to aid one country military was totally different from spending three billion to aid another country militarily. Ah well. I’ll need to look for sources of comedy elsewhere (And remember, even when the facts show that you’re wrong RNATB, it doesn’t count if you refuse to admit error. You also earn valuable Not Wrong Points redeemable for valuable prizes in Heaven.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/73 "2011-01-12T15:36:42Z")
> [@](#): > > That assumes the Israelis are both too smart and too stupid. Too smart, to concoct such a wide-ranging conspiracy, spanning many years and different governments; too stupid, not to realize that it would inevitably be discovered and damage the very relations on which the transfer is predicated in the first place … Yeah, I’m not buying that either. Especially considering _The Guardian’s_ typical position vis-a-vis Israel. > [@](#): > > Ah, the traditional summation of those who are right on the facts Yeah, pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/74 "2011-01-12T15:43:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, I’m not buying that either. Especially considering _The Guardian’s_ typical position vis-a-vis Israel. Well, to be fair, the Guardian pieces were simply straight reporting on the incidents in question. Though I agree the Guardian usually can be relied on to take … a certain position on all matters dealing with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/75 "2011-01-12T15:51:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, pretty much. You snipped that whole “and could really prove it too, they just don’t wanna, is all,” bit. Just an accidental omission, and not disingenuous cherrypicking, I’m sure. Just like I’m sure that you can show how aiding a country militarily is not covered under the phrase “military aid”. Why, I’m sure you’ll have a cite to that effect right away, seeing as how you’re not wrong and inventing your own personal definition of “military aid” that’s just, coincidentally (what luck!) so narrow that you don’t have to admit you were wrong. Or you can continue this spectacle of The Argument From Nuhn Unh! so you don’t have to admit you were wrong, since judging from your argument so far, such an admission is potentially lethal. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/76 "2011-01-12T16:58:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I do admit, I was looking forward to you trying to explain how spending three billion to aid one country military was totally different from spending three billion to aid another country militarily I think the distinction he’s trying to make is that in the case of Israel, we write them a check for about 3 billion in aid. In the case of S. Korea, we don’t.We just have a hell of a lot of troops there, and the cost of keeping all those troops there is about 3 billion. S. Korea still gets the benefit of the troops being there, but they don’t get the money directly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/77 "2011-01-12T19:07:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The US is not giving South Korea $3 billion. I’ll even re-post your own NYT quote so you can read it: > > My bolding. Now please shut up. If you want to argue that direct military support is equivalent, then sure, I’ll buy that. One telling difference between the money we give to Israel and the money we spend stationing troops in Korea is that there is very little popular support in Israel for reducing the amount of money that America gives to Israel while there is significant support for reducing America’s footprint in Korea. I imagine that the resistance would be significantly lower in Korea if they received aid in the same form that Israel did. We spend a lot of money in Afghanistan too but I don’t know if you can really call that aid. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/78 "2011-01-12T19:10:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The second link details the alleged offer to sell nukes to the south africans in the 70s, before US technological involvement, and so does not support your thesis. > > The problem here is that the US also uses Israel as a conduit for sales that are in the US’s alleged best interest, and so at its behest; Iran-Contra being an example … in the murky world of international arms sales, often nothing is as it seems on the surface. It is hard to keep track of who is deceiving whom. I think some people think that because we give Israel a lot of money, they therefore owe us unwavering fealty. We have our own reasons for giving them that money and its not all humanitarian. Israel is an ally not a colony. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/79 "2011-01-12T19:13:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, to be fair, the Guardian pieces were simply straight reporting on the incidents in question. Though I agree the Guardian usually can be relied on to take … a certain position on all matters dealing with Israel. I’m not really familiar. Which way does the guardian tend to lean? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128/80 "2011-01-12T19:16:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not really familiar. Which way does the guardian tend to lean? The Guardian can generally be counted on to be highly critical of Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-dependent-is-israel-upon-the-us/567128.md?page=5)