# Just how did VW the cheat come to light? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304 "2015-09-23T15:41:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/21 "2015-09-23T23:53:45Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I can’t help thinking that maybe VW was doing what was already an accepted practice of auto manufacturers. They just got caught. the group that discovered the cheat was testing a diesel BMW X5 along with the two VWs, and the BMW stayed clean throughout the test. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/22 "2015-09-24T01:15:03Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I can’t help thinking that maybe VW was doing what was already an accepted practice of auto manufacturers. They just got caught. They already do it on the EPA mileage ratings – the mileage that is reported in those ratings is way higher than people actually get in real driving. _Consumer Reports_ gives miles/gallon ratings based on their actual test driving, and those are almost always lower than EPA test ones. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/23 "2015-09-24T01:32:33Z")
I did not want to open a separate thread, but the VW cheat device was on a diesel engine, could the same be done for a gasoline engine. Declan ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/24 "2015-09-24T01:34:06Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I can’t help thinking that maybe VW was doing what was already an accepted practice of auto manufacturers. They just got caught. If it was accepted, there wouldn’t have been a big scandal about it. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/25 "2015-09-24T03:21:42Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > I did not want to open a separate thread, but the VW cheat device was on a diesel engine, could the same be done for a gasoline engine. Presumably, yes. As noted upthread, the method they used to cheat was to monitor the motion of the steering wheel, and go into “clean mode” if they sensed the engine was running but the car wasn’t being steered (which is what happens during a test.) That said, I don’t know enough about cars to know whether this would be of any benefit to a gasoline car. Maybe if an automaker wanted to make a car look like it had better fuel efficiency, but still have lots of “pep” on the road, it could burn a leaner mixture of fuel when it was in “test mode” and a richer mixture when you were actually driving. But I’m really just WAGging here. ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/26 "2015-09-24T05:29:04Z")
Not wanting to open another thread but I don’t understand the exact process within the manufacturer’s plant- in this case VW - that gets to program the on board computer. I suppose the change to the set up must have been sanctioned by people in the organization that were responsible for making such alterations. Was there a high level meeting of sorts where this idea was suggested and its implementation authorized? People within the organization must have been aware of it. How many? Were the changes made surreptitiously? If a group, like a bunch of programmers knew about it, did they not question the ethics of it? Why did someone from within the organization blow the whistle? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/27 "2015-09-24T05:38:17Z")
No one within VW blew the whistle. It was the result of independent testing, as detailed upthread. How high did the conspiracy go? I don’t think anyone knows for sure yet, but the speculation by auto industry experts I’ve heard and read is that is must go to the top. Perhaps some level of management slightly below the top gave the very top people some level of plaudible deniabilty–“guess what, we can meet the Ami emissions standards for cheap!” “How? Wait, never mind, I don’t need to know details. Broad strokes.” “Um…German engineering!” “Wunderbar!” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/28 "2015-09-24T05:55:07Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If it was accepted, there wouldn’t have been a big scandal about it. I assume that by “accepted practice” he meant “widespread”, or perhaps “accepted (wink wink)”. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/29 "2015-09-24T06:00:38Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > . . . it has nothing to do with state-level inspection tests (if the state does that.) Excuse me, but you’re wrong. VW had to make the cars pass not only the EPA certification tests, but also the state inspections. If they didn’t pass the state inspections, it would become impossible to register the cars. For instance, California requires cars to be smogged every two years, with the cars’ registrations contingent on passing. VW wouldn’t have been able to keep up the charade if every one of the cars in question failed the state smog tests every time. ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/30 "2015-09-24T06:10:57Z")
> [@wisernow](#): > > Why did someone from within the organization \*\*NOT \*\*blow the whistle? :smack: My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/31 "2015-09-24T06:29:29Z")
Ah I see. Makes sense with the rest of your post. Answering that question probably requires a whole different thread… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/32 "2015-09-24T07:06:06Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Excuse me, but you’re wrong. VW had to make the cars pass not only the EPA certification tests, but also the state inspections. If they didn’t pass the state inspections, it would become impossible to register the cars. For instance, California requires cars to be smogged every two years, with the cars’ registrations contingent on passing. VW wouldn’t have been able to keep up the charade if every one of the cars in question failed the state smog tests every time. The cheat would fool the state test too. At least here in Oregon it would, and I expect most states do very similar testing. The state test has the car sitting still and just revs the engine. The steering wheel doesn’t move, so it would go into clean mode and pass. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/33 "2015-09-24T07:58:39Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > The cheat would fool the state test too. . . Well, yes. My point was that the cheat had to work with state testing, not just EPA certification testing. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/34 "2015-09-24T09:35:41Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > They already do it on the EPA mileage ratings – the mileage that is reported in those ratings is way higher than people actually get in real driving. _Consumer Reports_ gives miles/gallon ratings based on their actual test driving, and those are almost always lower than EPA test ones. This isn’t nearly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/35 "2015-09-24T11:07:46Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > The cheat would fool the state test too. Here in Oregon . The state test has the car sitting still and just revs the engine. The steering wheel doesn’t move, so it would go into clean mode and pass. This raises another interesting facet of the conpiracy: did VW check all 50 states for their inspection procedures, and hold meetings discussing what type of fraud would work for each state? For example, where I live, I could easily ruin VW’s fraud system. My annual test is done while the driver sits in the car, and waits while the inspector sticks a monitor in the exhaust pipe and tells the driver to rev the engine. The car is not moving of course, but the driver naturally rests his hands on the steering wheel, and could easily, even unintentionally, make small movements to the steering column… ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/36 "2015-09-24T14:44:06Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Excuse me, but you’re wrong. VW had to make the cars pass not only the EPA certification tests, but also the state inspections. If they didn’t pass the state inspections, it would become impossible to register the cars. For instance, California requires cars to be smogged every two years, with the cars’ registrations contingent on passing. VW wouldn’t have been able to keep up the charade if every one of the cars in question failed the state smog tests every time. Does CA put the car on a dynamometer for the emissions test? I know that MA does not - they just let the car idle during the test. It’s possible that the cheat was only required while the engine is under a driving load. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/37 "2015-09-24T15:53:02Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Does CA put the car on a dynamometer for the emissions test? I know that MA does not - they just let the car idle during the test. It’s possible that the cheat was only required while the engine is under a driving load. From what I can tell, for cars made since 1996 they use the OBD (On-Board Diagnostics) system. This is an on-board system that monitors the vehicle’s emissions system and reports problems. It doesn’t require a dynamometer. It’s supposed to be more accurate than the tailpipe emissions test. It seems to create a loophole, though: it means the manufacturer self-reports any smog problems through equipment they put into the vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/38 "2015-09-24T15:57:59Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > They already do it on the EPA mileage ratings – the mileage that is reported in those ratings is way higher than people actually get in real driving. _Consumer Reports_ gives miles/gallon ratings based on their actual test driving, and those are almost always lower than EPA test ones. That’s not because the manufacturers are cheating (though ECUs can be remapped to produce better test results) but because the EPA test cycle is not representative of normal driving. You still get a fair comparison _across vehicles_, which is what matters. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/39 "2015-09-24T16:08:32Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > This raises another interesting facet of the conpiracy: did VW check all 50 states for their inspection procedures, and hold meetings discussing what type of fraud would work for each state? > > For example, where I live, I could easily ruin VW’s fraud system. My annual test is done while the driver sits in the car, and waits while the inspector sticks a monitor in the exhaust pipe and tells the driver to rev the engine. The car is not moving of course, but the driver naturally rests his hands on the steering wheel, and could easily, even unintentionally, make small movements to the steering column… Unless you sat in the car during the EPA test in a lab, they don’t care what you did with the steering wheel. They weren’t trying to beat state inspections on every single car they sold (presumably they would pass those with flying colors, cheat or no cheat). They were trying to pass the EPA test under specific laboratory conditions that allowed the car to be legally sold in the country. I’m not sure if any issues came up with the numbers on the state tests vs. the EPA numbers, but I’m guessing the methodology is so different that the numbers generally cannot be compared apploes-to-apples anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304/40 "2015-09-24T17:05:23Z")
> [@SpeedwayRyan](#): > > They weren’t trying to beat state inspections on every single car they sold (presumably they would pass those with flying colors, cheat or no cheat). Why do you presume that? How would a car that turned off its smog controls pass the state smog tests? If it couldn’t, wouldn’t it require the same type of cheating in state tests as with EPA certification tests? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-did-vw-the-cheat-come-to-light/732304.md?page=3)