# Just how much was tuppence, anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 4, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991 "2018-03-04T01:06:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/41 "2018-03-05T01:55:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve got sixpence. > > Jolly, jolly sixpence! Hey, we sang that back in sixth grade! 🙂 \*I’ve got sixpence to spend and sixpence to lend, and sixpence to send home to me wife, poor wife! No cares have I to grieve me, no pretty little girl to deceive me! I’m happy as a lark, believe me, as we go rolling, rolling home! Rolling home (rolling home), rolling home (rolling home), by the light of the silvery moon! Happy is the day when we line up for our pay, as we go rolling, rolling home!\* ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/42 "2018-03-05T02:06:56Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > … and they had to work out problems like that _without a calculator_, only a pencil and paper. > > … and probably got hit over the knuckles with a ruler if they got it wrong.  :eek: In MY day, a slide rule was the thing. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/43 "2018-03-05T02:17:11Z")
> [@susan](#): > > In MY day, a slide rule was the thing. Hey, I had one of those in ninth grade! Got pretty good with it, too. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/44 "2018-03-05T02:20:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve got sixpence. > > Jolly, jolly sixpence! For the first time ever, [a picture of Johnny L.A.:](https://goo.gl/images/or4Af3) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/45 "2018-03-05T02:25:16Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > For the first time ever, [a picture of Johnny L.A.:](https://goo.gl/images/or4Af3) AIEEEEEE, Jonny! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/46 "2018-03-05T05:53:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve got sixpence. > > Jolly, jolly sixpence! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/75Jzxkoa6w8/hqdefault.jpg "I've got Sixpence") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Jzxkoa6w8) ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/47 "2018-03-05T06:54:08Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Christ, the question ain’t why the Empire fell. It’s how y’all held onto it so long thinking like that. Well, it’s the USAns that are now keeping it going with their archaic system of weights and measurements… 😉 OB ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/48 "2018-03-05T07:16:52Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > **Question:** What was the tipoff that he was an agent? In my book, to be a strictly pukka English gent, he would simply have struck out into the middle of the road pointing his rolled umbrella like a cavalry charge. Up to the hoi polloi to give way, doncherknow. (One of the teachers at my grammar school was notorious for nearly causing car crash after crash doing that). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/49 "2018-03-05T09:03:32Z")
> [@j666](#): > > So it would have cost about a dollar to feed the birds or to open a bank account. Seems a little low to me, at least for the bank account. Seems just right to me. The movie made clear, I thought, that tuppence was a trivial amount (just right for feeding birds), adding humor to the bank’s eagerness to get their hands on it! When comparing amounts of money past to present, the huge rises in productivity lead to a dilemma: Do you compare wages or purchasing power? [According to this site](https://www.measuringworth.com/), in 1910 mean annual wage was £70.92 (only 25% what it was in 2016 in real terms). Thus, tuppence had the purchasing power of 78 new pence in today’s money but was as hard for a laborer to earn as £3.12 today. That website uses a standard consumer “basket” that goes back to 1209! It may be very misleading since much of today’s spending power goes for iPhones, gasoline cable TV charges, etc. which are NOT in the 1209 basket! ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/50 "2018-03-05T10:18:38Z")
It can be highly misleading to try to convert historical values into modern currency. - The _relative_ value of most items was very different. Items that were expensive then are cheap now, and items that were cheap then are expensive now. - Standards of living, diet, and lifestyle were very different. - The distribution of wealth in society was different. - The whole financial and economic system operated differently. Anyone who has visited a foreign country today knows that straight conversion into one’s own currency is not necessarily helpful - money has a different ‘feel’ in different countries. On first arriving in a foreign country and being told a cup of coffee costs X amount, we convert that to our own currency and wonder whether this is cheap, expensive, a rip-off, or what. We can’t tell how that amount ‘feels’ to a native of the country until we have been in the country a while. If this is the case in different countries today, in our era of globalization and instant communication, how much greater is the effect when we are talking about a remote period of history? The effect is so much greater that any conversion is practically meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/51 "2018-03-05T10:33:08Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If this is the case in different countries today, in our era of globalization and instant communication, how much greater is the effect when we are talking about a remote period of history? The effect is so much greater that any conversion is practically meaningless. In my book, $1 (or the equivalent) for a small bag of bread crumbs is pretty damned expensive anywhere, in any period! ☹ In my travels over the last quarter century, I’ve found the only reliable economic barometer is that of the Big Mac. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/52 "2018-03-05T11:43:58Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > In my book, $1 (or the equivalent) for a small bag of bread crumbs is pretty damned expensive anywhere, in any period! ☹ > > In my travels over the last quarter century, I’ve found the only reliable economic barometer is that of the Big Mac. 🆒 Some [limitations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Limitations) of the Big Mac index. According to [this](https://www.bclm.co.uk/media/learning/library/witr_costofliving1910.pdf) PDF, the typical cost of items in 1910 was: 1 loaf of bread      2½d  1 pound butter     1s 2d  1 pound sugar     3d  1 pound tea      1s 6d  20 pounds of potatoes   10d  1 pound cheese    6d  1 pound bacon     9d  1 pound onions    1½d  1 dozen eggs      1s  1 pound biscuits    8d  1 pound lard      7d  1 pound jam      5½d  1 pound apples    3d  12 pints milk      3d  1 pound meat      10d  Wrights Coal Tar soap  4d per tablet  Child’s boots      2s 11d  Letter post      1d  Swan Vestas matches   1d So a whole loaf of bread (probably smaller than a modern loaf) was 2½d, but I suppose the bird lady had to make a profit somehow.  🙂 Milk was very cheap. You could get 10 pints of milk for the same price as a loaf of bread. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/53 "2018-03-05T11:51:42Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > In my travels over the last quarter century, I’ve found the only reliable economic barometer is that of the Big Mac. 🆒 I agree to disagree! In Thailand, for many people eating out at McDonalds is a treat, rather than a last-resort cheap option. I just got back from our local “Western food” restaurant where I had a chicken steak with salad, fries and Pepsi for significantly less than a local $4 BigMac (let alone BigMac with fries and drink). And of course a filling noodle soup or papaya salad would have been a fraction of even that low price. Even worse is the U.N. expat’s salary adjustment index, which uses a basket based on Marlboro, Johnny Walker Black and 4-star hotel. Local cigarettes and whisky are _much_ cheaper than imported brands! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/54 "2018-03-05T15:42:21Z")
The bird lady was similar to a matchstick girl: You don’t pay her tuppance because that’s what the breadcrumbs or matches are worth. She’s basically begging, and the “product” she’s offering is just to put a thin facade on it, both for the sake of her dignity, and because begging might have been technically illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/55 "2018-03-05T17:10:14Z")
My tenuously-valuable contribution to this thread is in relating how on a trip to Europe a few years ago to meet my girlfriend’s relatives, l somehow picked up the habit of referring to coins as “eurocents”. For some reason, this annoyed her. My first instinct had been to call them “centimes”. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/56 "2018-03-05T19:22:15Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’m 64 and have lived in England all my life. > What follows is to the best of my memory 😕 > > When I was a lad (say early 60s), we had a pound note. This was divided into: > > - 2 ten shilling notes (known as ‘ten bob’') > > and various coins > > - 8 half-crowns (silver, circular, large) > - 20 shillings (silver, circular, medium) > - 40 sixpences (silver, circular, small - thus two sixpences made a shilling) > - 80 threepenny bits (yellow, 12 edges, small) > - 120 twopences (bronze, circular, large) > - 240 pennies (bronze, circular, medium) > - 480 halfpennies (bronze, circular, small) > - 960 farthings (bronze, circular, very small) > > ‘Tuppence’ was a frequently used word for a single twopence coin. > > There could have been a ‘Crown’, but I don’t remember it. > > I think my pocket money was about a shilling a week - or six tuppences. > (I remember saving for about 10 weeks to buy something costing 50 pence.) > > You could buy **several sweets** with tuppence (gobstoppers, sherbet lemons come to mind), > or go on a **short bus journey**. > I’m not sure how much a **cinema ticket** cost - I would guess about a shilling (6 tuppences.) > I expect you could buy a \*\*comic \*\*(The Beano) for tuppence. I am your age and British, and I do not recall a tuppence coin. The farthing was quite a large coin for its value, but that is true of all the copper coinage of that era. The penny (not pence) was huge. Crowns? I think they disappeared with Queen Victoria. We had the half crown, a large and thick silver coin. It has been said that British currency tends to be disproportionately heavy for its value, hence you weigh down your pocket to have enough ready small cash. The Euro is better scaled for weight and size, although you need to look very closely to distinguish between the small coins, which look similar to the next one up or down the scale. The simplest solution would be to have coins with holes in them, like the Japanese 5 yen and 50 yen coins. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/57 "2018-03-05T19:41:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I agree to disagree! In Thailand, for many people eating out at McDonalds is a treat, rather than a last-resort cheap option. Whether in London in 1976, Moscow in 1992, Helsinki in 1998, Tallinn in 2003, Vilnius in 2012, Riga in 2017, or Toronto right now, the price of a Big Mac has consistently remained the same in real terms, regardless of how the locals view eating at McD’s. How they do seems to have little effect the company’s business, since the outlets I’ve been to have always been packed. As for the Bird Lady, it all depends on how willing you’d be to give $1 of your hard-earned money to a beggar. This would be higher on the utility curve for some people than for others. Whether your children would be entertained by doing so is something that would definitely have to be factored in, as it could enhance the value of the product (bread crumbs). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/58 "2018-03-05T20:26:15Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > I am your age and British, and I do not recall a tuppence coin. The farthing was quite a large coin for its value, but that is true of all the copper coinage of that era. The penny (not pence) was huge. > > Crowns? I think they disappeared with Queen Victoria. We had the half crown, a large and thick silver coin… The tuppence, as a single coin, was apparently quite rare: > **[Twopence (British pre-decimal coin)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twopence_(British_pre-decimal_coin))** > > The British twopence (2d) (/ˈtʌpəns/ or /ˈtuːpəns/) coin was a denomination of sterling coinage worth two pennies or .mw-parser-output .sfrac{white-space:nowrap}.mw-parser-output .sfrac.tion,.mw-parser-output .sfrac .tion{display:inline-block;vertical-align:-0.5em;font-size:85%;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .num{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.0em 0.1em;border-bottom:1px solid}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .den{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.1em 0.1em}.mw-parser-output .... ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/59 "2018-03-05T22:54:07Z")
Surely **Ms. Poppins** intent was to instill charity in her wards. She was a practical lady smart enough to know “the birds will always be with us.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991/60 "2018-03-06T04:57:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Surely **Ms. Poppins** intent was to instill charity in her wards. She was a practical lady smart enough to know “the birds will always be with us.” 🙂 I’ve always preferred the Mary Poppins books to the movie. They are definitely weirder, and sometimes less benevolent. The whole story about the bank in movie, and trying to convince the children to deposit their money there, doesn’t occur in the books. Mr Banks is never ‘saved’ and never needs saving in the books - all that was an invention by Disney. In the books, he is always a pleasant, devoted father, and a very minor character. From the first book, _Mary Poppins_ by P. L. Travers: > [@](#): > > **THE BIRD WOMAN** > > “Perhaps she won’t be there,” said Michael. > > “Yes, she will,” said Jane. “She’s always there for ever and ever.” > > They were walking up Ludgate Hill on the way to pay a visit to Mr Banks in the City. For he had said that morning to Mrs Banks: > > “My dear, if it doesn’t rain I think Jane and Michael might call for me at the Office today – that is, if you are agreeable. I have a feeling I should like to be taken to Tea and Shortbread Fingers and it’s not often I have a Treat.” > > And Mrs Banks had said she would think about it. > > But all day long, though Jane and Michael had watched her anxiously, she had not seemed to be thinking about it at all. From the things she said, she was thinking about the Laundry Bill and Michael’s new overcoat and where was Aunt Flossie’s address, and why did that wretched Mrs Jackson ask her to tea on the second Thursday of the month when she knew that was the very day Mrs Banks had to go to the Dentist’s? > > Suddenly, when they felt quite sure she would never think about Mr Banks’ treat, she said: > > “Now, children, don’t stand staring at me like that. Get your things on. You are going to the City to have tea with your Father. Had you forgotten?” > > As if they could have forgotten! For it was not as though it were only the Tea that mattered. There was also the Bird Woman, and she herself was the best of all Treats. > > That is why they were walking up Ludgate Hill and feeling very excited. > > Mary Poppins walked between them, wearing her new hat and looking very distinguished. Every now and then she would look into the shop window just to make sure the hat was still there and that the pink roses on it had not turned into common flowers like marigolds. > > Every time she stopped to make sure, Jane and Michael would sigh, but they did not dare say anything for fear she would spend even longer looking at herself in the windows, and turning this way and that to see which attitude was the most becoming. > > But at last they came to St Paul’s Cathedral, which was built a long time ago by a man with a bird’s name. Wren it was, but he was no relation to Jenny. That is why so many birds live near Sir Christopher Wren’s Cathedral, which also belongs to St Paul, and that is why the Bird Woman lives there, too. > > “There she is!” cried Michael suddenly, and he danced on his toes with excitement. > > “Don’t point,” said Mary Poppins, giving a last glance at the pink roses in the window of a carpet shop. > > “She’s saying it! She’s saying it!” cried Jane, holding tight to herself for fear she would break in two with delight. > > And she _was_ saying it. The Bird Woman was there and she was saying it. > > “Feed the Birds, Tuppence a Bag! Feed the Birds, Tuppence a Bag! Feed the Birds, Feed the Birds, Tuppence a Bag, Tuppence a Bag!” Over and over again, the same thing, in a high chanting voice that made the words seem like a song. > > And as she said it she held out little bags of breadcrumbs to the passers-by. > > All round her flew the birds, circling and leaping and swooping and rising. Mary Poppins always called them “sparrers” because, she said conceitedly, all birds were alike to her. But Jane and Michael knew that they were not sparrows, but doves and pigeons. There were fussy and chatty grey doves like Grandmothers; and brown, rough-voiced pigeons like Uncles; and greeny, cackling, no-I’ve-no-money-today pigeons like Fathers. And the silly, anxious, soft blue doves were like Mothers. That’s what Jane and Michael thought, anyway. > > They flew round and round the head of the Bird Woman as the children approached, and then, as though to tease her, they suddenly rushed away through the air and sat on the top of St Paul’s, laughing and turning their heads away and pretending they didn’t know her. > > It was Michael’s turn to buy a bag. Jane had bought one last time. He walked up to the Bird Woman and held out four halfpennies. > > “_Feed_ the Birds, Tuppence a Bag!” said the Bird Woman, as she put a bag of crumbs into his hand and tucked the money away into the folds of her huge black skirt. > > “Why don’t you have penny bags?” said Michael. “Then I could buy two.” > > “Feed the Birds, _Tuppence_ a Bag!” said the Bird Woman, and Michael knew it was no good asking her any more questions. He and Jane had often tried, but all she could say, and all she had ever been able to say, was, “Feed the Birds, Tuppence a Bag!” Just as a cuckoo can only say “Cuckoo,” no matter what questions you ask him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-much-was-tuppence-anyway/809991.md?page=4)