# Just how Protectionist is President Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655 "2009-01-30T01:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/21 "2009-01-30T19:22:18Z")
> [@cocopuffed](#): > > not protectionist enough. So you like massive layoffs because American companies are not able to get overseas contracts? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/22 "2009-01-30T19:54:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I didn’t say NAFTA didn’t work. > > NAFTA WON’T work if the two sides don’t want it to. My mistake - I didn’t realize you were just stating the obvious. > [@](#): > > \ > What certainly is not going to foster a spirit of cooperation and bilateralism is “We’re gonna kick your ass! You ruined our economy!” Did you write posts of beaming praise for the “United Statesians” in 2004 when we were living high off the hog in 2004 when their economy was rolling?\ I should have; if only I’d known then what I know now. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/23 "2009-01-30T19:55:22Z")
> [@cocopuffed](#): > > not protectionist enough. How protectionist would be enough for you? Close the borders of the US to all foreign trade? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/24 "2009-01-30T20:01:53Z")
Demanding that US government dollars be spent on US products is not the same as taxing imports to make them more expensive. I am a free trade person, but it we are going to piss away taxpayer dollars and run up the debt on my kids - then can we at least try to stimulate the AMERICAN economy? Why the hell should the Feds borrow a crap load of cash to make Canada stronger? Should we build you some new roads too? Perhaps we should come up and improve the ports in Canada too! The lumber stuff is dumb, and the US is wrong on that one. We should be allowed to require that the US government buy American, however. ---
**Author:** ![cocopuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@cocopuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cocopuffed)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/25 "2009-01-30T20:13:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you like massive layoffs because American companies are not able to get overseas contracts? there’s plenty of work here for the next decade or three, by which time the world may settle down with a friendlier realtionship.. but the first thing we should put an absolute import ban on are American flags. i’m just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/26 "2009-01-30T20:14:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Demanding that US government dollars be spent on US products is not the same as taxing imports to make them more expensive. > > I am a free trade person, but it we are going to piss away taxpayer dollars and run up the debt on my kids - then can we at least try to stimulate the AMERICAN economy? Because if you get all protectionist, and mess with free trade, you will (in the long run), be worse off. The American economy does not exist in a vacuum, and like it or not, your own country will be better off if the economy of your trading partners does not go into the toilet ---
**Author:** ![cocopuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@cocopuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cocopuffed)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/27 "2009-01-30T20:18:42Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > We should be allowed to require that the US government buy American, however. if joe six pack wants to order imported goods, fine… but the government should spend our money where we want it to be spent. there’s plenty to go around for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/28 "2009-01-30T20:27:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Because if you get all protectionist, and mess with free trade, you will (in the long run), be worse off. > > The American economy does not exist in a vacuum, and like it or not, your own country will be better off if the economy of your trading partners does not go into the toilet That is not protectionism, in the classic definition. Protectionism is when we PREVENT imports from coming to America. For US Government spending that is being justified to help AMERICA, we should spend it on AMERICAN goods. Walmart is welcome to stock aisle after aisle of “Made in China” products. Lennar can build houses made of Canadian lumber. However, if we are going to justify billions of dolllars in long-term debt to help America, we need to spend it on and in America. If not - you are arguing that we should take the stimulus program and just spend the money on hookers and blow in Cabo San Lucas -after all, it is a global economy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/29 "2009-01-30T20:29:07Z")
> [@cocopuffed](#): > > there’s plenty of work here for the next decade or three, by which time the world may settle down with a friendlier realtionship.. > > but the first thing we should put an absolute import ban on are American flags. > > i’m just saying. How about little lapel pins? Are they pretty critical too? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/30 "2009-01-30T20:46:32Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > That is not protectionism, in the classic definition. Protectionism is when we PREVENT imports from coming to America. It does not matter how you want to label it. The real question IMHO, is whether or not it is a good idea. > [@Algher](#): > > For US Government spending that is being justified to help AMERICA, we should spend it on AMERICAN goods. Again, you don’t live in a bubble. If the American government spends money on Canadian goods, our economies are so intertwined already, that it is almost inevitable that this money will flow right back into the United States when these Canadian companies turn around and spend money on American goods. Trade flowing in an unobstructed (or unmanipulated if you prefer) manner is good for both of our economies. For another thing, it does not make much sense for the American government to stop buying steel from, for example, Stelco in Hamilton Ontario. That’s because Stelco is now owned by US Steel. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/31 "2009-01-30T21:15:03Z")
I completely agree that Obama is not nearly protectionist enough. But what I am really furious about is that my state (New Jersey) buys vehicles from other states such as Michigan and Alabama. These are New Jersey tax dollars, and I don’t want them spent on non-NJ companies! Also, our tax dollars should only be spent on New Jersey computers and New Jersey steel. Ideally, this could be practiced by every county or city, so I get buy everything from my immediate community. This would force the creation of millions of jobs, so my neighbors and I could produce cars and laptops and everything that we currently buy from foreign places like China and Texas. If we did this we’d be out of the recession overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/32 "2009-01-30T21:53:37Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > As for these rules they aren’t that important since they apply only to stimulus spending. What would be a serious problem would be a move towards raising trade barriers generally the economy and there isn’t any sign whatsoever that Obama is seeking to do this. This stimulus bill is equivalent to about 6% of the United States’ GDP. That’s pretty significant. > [@cocopuffed](#): > > but the government should spend our money where we want it to be spent. I disagree. The government should not waste the taxpayers’ money propping up inefficient local companies at the expense of close allies and trading partners like Canada, if Canadian companies can do a better job. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/33 "2009-01-30T21:58:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It does not matter how you want to label it. The real question IMHO, is whether or not it is a good idea. > > Again, you don’t live in a bubble. If the American government spends money on Canadian goods, our economies are so intertwined already, that it is almost inevitable that this money will flow right back into the United States when these Canadian companies turn around and spend money on American goods. Trade flowing in an unobstructed (or unmanipulated if you prefer) manner is good for both of our economies. > > For another thing, it does not make much sense for the American government to stop buying steel from, for example, Stelco in Hamilton Ontario. That’s because Stelco is now owned by US Steel. [Canada and the US steel industries are highly integrated and the benefits are rather even.](http://w01.international.gc.ca/Minpub/PublicationContentOnly.asp?publication_id=379057&Language=E&MODE=CONTENTONLY&Local=False) Our stimulus packages seem rather comparable as well on a per capita scale. In 2000 we sold each other Three and a half billion dollars worth of steel. However, any US restriction on Canadian imports will harm Canada unduly, because (from 2000 stats) the US bought 96% of Canada’s exports while Canada only represented 60% of US exports. Yet 20% of of the Canadian steel market uses American steel. Canada will have no choice but to come up with a similar trade restriction. It would appear to me that the right thing to do is to exempt Canada from this trade restriction. I’ve heard that there’s a chance that that could be accomplished in the senate. However given all I’ve heard about Obama’s background community organizing around a shut down steel mill, I’m not so sure. > [@](#): > > Canada and the United States have been, and continue to be each other’s best, most reliable and dependable steel customers. U.S. steel exports to Canada, valued at $3.5 billion in 2000, now account for almost 60 percent of all U.S. steel exports, a significant increase over the level of 33 percent of all U.S. steel exports less than a decade ago. In 2000, Canadian steel exports to the U.S, valued at $3.6 billion, represented 96 percent of total Canadian steel exports. Steel imports from Canada accounted for 3.7 percent of the U.S. market, while imports from the U.S. accounted for almost 20 percent of the Canadian market ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/34 "2009-01-30T22:59:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > This stimulus bill is equivalent to about 6% of the United States’ GDP. That’s pretty significant. > I disagree. The government should not waste the taxpayers’ money propping up inefficient local companies at the expense of close allies and trading partners like Canada, if Canadian companies can do a better job. How about China? Should we ship the stimulus checks straight to Shanghai? After all, it is a global economy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/35 "2009-01-31T00:15:58Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > How about China? Should we ship the stimulus checks straight to Shanghai? > > After all, it is a global economy. Fine, you hate China and don’t want to buy their products, whatever. How does that have anything to do with whether you should buy _Canadian_ products? > [@American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009](#): > > SEC. 1110. USE OF AMERICAN IRON AND STEEL. > (a) IN GENERAL.—None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used for a project for the construction, alteration, maintenance, or repair of a public building or public work unless all of the iron and steel used in the project is produced in the United States. > (b) EXCEPTIONS.—Subsection (a) shall not apply in any case in which the head of the Federal department or agency involved finds that— > (1) applying subsection (a) would be inconsistent with the public interest; > (2) iron and steel are not produced in the United States in sufficient and reasonably available quantities and of a satisfactory quality; or > **(3) inclusion of iron and steel produced in the United States will increase the cost of the overall project by more than 25 percent.** (bolding mine) You really support paying up to 25% more for these projects (not just 25% of the cost of the iron and steel, but 25% _of the whole project_), so that the money goes directly to American companies instead of to your closest ally? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/36 "2009-01-31T01:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, you don’t live in a bubble. If the American government spends money on Canadian goods, our economies are so intertwined already, that it is almost inevitable that this money will flow right back into the United States when these Canadian companies turn around and spend money on American goods. Trade flowing in an unobstructed (or unmanipulated if you prefer) manner is good for both of our economies. Personally, I’m not even convinced that there exist an “American economy” and “Canadian economy” as separate entities. Our border is so long that for many places in Canada, the closest major city is in the US, and vice versa. It’s also the most open border in the world (or at least, with the establishment of the European Union, one of the most open), and our peoples speak the same language and have very similar cultures, making migration of people across the border trivially easy. In what sense are our economies separate? The only complaint I could see is if the government of Canada is not taking proportionate measures of its own to improve the economy. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/37 "2009-01-31T01:40:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The only complaint I could see is if the government of Canada is not taking proportionate measures of its own to improve the economy. Is it? Monday will see the passage of a budget with a rather gigantic stimulus endeavour. It will be the first deficit run by the Canadian government in twelve years. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/38 "2009-01-31T01:50:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Fine, you hate China and don’t want to buy their products, whatever. How does that have anything to do with whether you should buy _Canadian_ products? > (bolding mine) > > You really support paying up to 25% more for these projects (not just 25% of the cost of the iron and steel, but 25% _of the whole project_), so that the money goes directly to American companies instead of to your closest ally? I am making no distinction between ANY of the nations we trade with in this. I would happily work with Canada, but then why not Mexico? They are a critical part of our nation’s economic health as well. China is our manufacturing arm, and their pain is felt by us as well. Now, you brought in a great point - the 25% project increase. Here is the thing, we are not deficit spending to rebuild our infrastructure. We are spending to help our economy and to get Americans back into jobs. It might be that spending 25% more is WORTH it - if that means that more of that money will stay in the US and create more American jobs. I do NOT support trade barriers, but when you are talking about a stimulus program it is imporant that we ensure that the maximum stimulation is on our own people. If we find out that our stimulus dollars saved Canada but did little for the US - then the next time the bill comes forward it will be voted down. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/39 "2009-01-31T02:02:54Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > If we find out that our stimulus dollars saved Canada but did little for the US - then the next time the bill comes forward it will be voted down. That’s the thing though. Your scenario is impossible. There is no possible way that say, for instance, buying Canadian made steel would save Canada but do little for the US. We don’t just stuff the money you spend on our products into our igloos or blow it all on hookers and blow. We buy stuff. Mostly your stuff. Which helps your economy. See **Chronos** ’ post. ---
**Author:** ![cocopuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@cocopuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cocopuffed)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655/40 "2009-01-31T02:08:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > How about little lapel pins? Are they pretty critical too? absolutely! anything with fifty stars and thirteen stripes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-protectionist-is-president-obama/483655.md?page=3)