How many US politicians are (publically known to be) atheists or even non-theistic agnostics?
My first thought on the OP’s question of: “If you say you don’t believe in God what would happen to you?” was that you could pretty much forget getting elected to political office.
Or is that not generally true? (Obviously there are exceptions… but I’ve seen Dopers express opinions along the lines that the US will see a gay black female President before an atheist).
According to a Pew poll conducted May 8 to Aug. 13 2007:
5% of the US population does “not believe in God or a universal spirit”.
However, only 24% of the 5% use the word “atheist” to identify themselves.
35% identify as “nothing in particular”
24% identify with a specific religion (including even a few evangelicals!)
15% identify as “agnostic”
2% don’t know what word to use to identify themselves, or refuse to use any word.
I live in Indiana, which is considered “bible belt,” but since I’m in Indianapolis it’s a little less xtian than the rest of the state. I’ve never had anyone take issue with my atheism, but it doesn’t come up often because all but a few friends are also atheist.
I feel the same way you described, and can’t help thinking that most religious people aren’t very smart, and definitely can’t be considered critical thinkers. But luckily, it’s not usually something that comes up.
Which is irrelevant to the claim that the majority of religious people believe in evolution.
See, there’s your problem right there; you [present yourself as] thinking that a disdain for science is a “mainstream Christian principle”, and feel justified in assuming that anyone who identifies as Christian is “aligned” with it.
There are two problems here. Your first problem is one of discrimation. If you need or want to know whether the Christian in front of you has a disdain for science, ask him. If you are making, e.g, employment decisions about him based on the characteristics of a group to which he belongs rather than on his own characteristics, you are acting illegally. If you are making other kinds of decisions, you may not be acting illegally, but you are still engaging in unjustified discrimination.
Your second problem is one of ignorance. There may well be movements within Christianity that are disdainful of science, but it is flat-out wrong to say that a disdain for science is a “mainstream Christian principle”.
The combination of ignorance and discrimination is a toxic one.
This. Mormons tend to be quite religious, and “moderately practicing Mormons” and “cultural Mormons” are less common than mainstream Protestant denominations. Still, most Mormons I know and who I’ve met are genuinely nice people It’s not an act.
There are plenty of people who would not dare tell their boss that they are atheists. It would not go well for their careers. If you are smart, you keep it to yourself. It can not help you, but it can cause harm.
Not true for local or state office, depending on the area. You might be elected to the Senate or House of Representatives if you’re a run-of-the-mill atheist in a blue state – not a frothing evangelical Dawkins-quoting Doper type, though..
I’d like to point out that most Catholic Lawn Fetes in Buffalo have beer tents, and they can get quite rowdy. A few:
http://www.olbsdepew.org/Main/News.cfm?NewsID=22\
http://www.stleoslawnfete.com/
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
There are plenty of people who would not dare tell their boss that they are atheists. It would not go well for their careers. If you are smart, you keep it to yourself. It can not help you, but it can cause harm.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe where you live this is true (I’m skeptical, but who knows? You could live in some fundamentalist hell hole for all I know) but I’ve never had a problem with telling anyone, including my various bosses, that I’m an agnostic. My current boss certainly knows, and he’s a southern baptist. Last I checked, I’m still employed. In my lifetime I can honestly say that I’ve had more trouble with folks concerning my race than my religion, or lack of religion. Of course I don’t make a habit of rubbing peoples noses in my agnosticism, or telling them what fat heads they are for being believers, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I’m a live and let live sort of guy…as long as you don’t try and push your religion on me I’m content to not push my lack of belief on you…
-XT
Technically, as presented, yes. But I think that question suffers from its requirement that “belief” be asserted positively. It’s pretty understandable that a people who haven’t been well-educated in science are largely reluctant to say they “believe” in something that they don’t understand and which is portrayed in some quarters as undecided or controversial. Telemark may have been on better ground to say that most religious people “accept” or “don’t disbelieve” evolution.
There are all kinds of reasons why it’s a good thing I don’t make employment decisions.
Perhaps. But I should be clear: I modify my assumptions as soon as I have new data. Usually a short chat will clear things up. But if the subject never comes up, there’s not much I can do.
Only 14% of Americans believe the statement “Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals” is definitely true. I see no way to reconcile this fact with the claim that mainstream Christians are not disdainful of (at least some branches of) science.
I’ll add that gay condemnation is also a mainstream view, as proven by the success of Proposition 8 in CA. And I hope I don’t have to cite anything about the pro-choice comment.
I’ll also add that I can take what I dish out. I’m a registered Republican. So of course I get comments like: “So you support the war in Iraq?”, “You must hate Obama’s health care plan”, or “Why do you think the rich shouldn’t be taxed?”. All of these have an answer of “I don’t, though the explanation is complex”. But I’d be an extremely silly person if I didn’t think these were mainstream Republican views, or that people wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) make assumptions if I told them I was Republican without further comment.
As a Canadian watching from afar, who has wintered in Florida, has travelled to America a lot, is dating an American, and knows a lot of American friends and co-workers…
I think they’re obviously one of the most religious nations in the developed world, but I think it’s overinflated by virtue of how willing people are to talk about it. Christian, Muslim or whatever.
I guess you could call me a Catholic, for all intents and purposes. If a friend asked me if I was religious, I’d explain my beliefs, what I do in my church, and what I don’t do. If a stranger asked me my beliefs, tried talking about religion with me, I’d start by feeling uncomfortable, and probably end by telling them to go fuck themselves, regardless of the context. It’s probably a trait I inherited from my mum and her family, who came here from a communist country. They’re more Catholic than the pope, if truth be told, but think that their beliefs are none of your business.
People mention the radio stations on the AM and shortwave in the states. There’s a big cultural movement tied in with Christian denominations. I’ve had these black guys with bow ties give me pamphlets about “God’s True Message,” or whatever it said…something about Islam? I even saw those Atheist advertisements on a side of bus (can’t remember what city it was in).
I never felt this presence going to Europe, especially East Europe. There are churches, and people presumably go to them, but there’s no real proletyzing going on. I get the feeling that religion is there, it’s just a private matter. But this could just be my own experience.
Given the data you cite, I think what you meant to say was “I see no way to reconcile this fact with the claim that Americans are not disdainful of (at least some branches of) science.”
I accept, of course, that American Christians may be overrepresented in the 86% of Americans who doubt the standard scientific account of evolution. Nevertheless, as someone who has lived in Europe and Oceania, evolution-scepticism doesn’t look to me like a characteristically Christian position, but rather a common American one. Do American Christians tend to doubt evolution because they are Christians, or because they are Americans? I suspect the answer to that is probably a bit complex.
I’m more sympathetic to your claims regarding gay condemnation and pro-choice attitudes though I note, again, that the evidence you offer regarding gay condemnation is evidence about the attitudes of Californians, not the attitudes of Christians. But it would probably not be difficult to get better evidence.
Well, fair enough as regards taking what you dish out. But there is a distinction between people assuming that you share what are in fact mainstream Republican views, and people assuming that you share what they wrongly assume to be mainstream Republican views. Both are oppressive, but the second is more oppressive.
Easy. It’s not disdain, it’s just not a part of their lives, so they don’t bother learning about it. It’s not exactly useful information for most people. There’s no need not to be agnostic about the situation.
And, really, what utility is there in believing in evolution, anyways? As long as I don’t disbelieve in it, why does it affect me? I’m not a scientist.
Even if Christians were underrepresented in that 86%, it would not be sufficient to explain away the results, given that 76% of Americans identify as Christian.
Well, ok. I was speaking within the context of Americans. I was raised in a Catholic household and there was never any doubt about evolution, but if I labeled myself as a generic Christian I wouldn’t blame anyone for playing the odds and assuming I was not so confident.
Indeed. But that’s rather beside the point. My claim was only that it was fair to make certain assumptions about a self-labeled Christian (I’ll add: “and American”, and
“as long as one doesn’t act too confidently on that assumption”).
If you track the lobbyist money, it goes further than that. Two major out-of-state contributions were by the Christian group “Focus on the Family” and by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (do they count as Christian :-)?).
Well, this is getting rather far afield of the OP. We should start another thread.
The problem with that hypothesis is that a distinctly minority chunk (21%) chose “uncertain”. The rest felt confident enough to have some opinion on the subject. A third thought the idea absolutely false.
If the bottom 86% had all chosen “uncertain”, I would interpret this as a failure of our education system, not of Christianity. But the numbers show something else.
I’m not in the habit of defending christians, but in my experience it’s the fundies who refuse to accept evolution. I grew up in a small town where everyone is christian, and we learned evolution in science class and no one took issue with it. It wasn’t until I’d been out of high school for awhile that I became aware that there was any controversy. Of course, I graduated in '92 and the whole thing wasn’t as politicized as it is now.
As with so many things, the extremists make the news and give the impression that they represent the group, when in reality most people are far more reasonable.
So, tell me, just how religious is the US?
Stupid religious.
Are people frightened to say they are atheists?
I will only speak for myself: I am pretty cautious about it. I wouldn’t “frightened,” though.
Is it only certain areas where caution is required?
I’d say so.
If you say you don’t believe in God what would happen to you?
Some narrow-minded people might treat you differently. Be less friendly, or worse: try to convert you.
** Is almost everyone around you a believer?**
I’d say yes.
How many people do you know who don’t believe in evolution?
Only a few.
How many people do you know who believe there are angels walking on the Earth?
Not sure I can answer this one.
If you applied for a job and were asked about your religion would you be happy to say you have none?
I would be reluctant to respond. Such a question would be illegal, anyway.
Dr. Strangelove, are you looking at some other source than the one you pointed to? The linked NG piece says “14 percent of adults thought that evolution was ‘definitely true,’ while about a third firmly rejected the idea,” which seems to me to leave about 53% uncertain.