# Just how reprehensible can you be in the Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 22, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820 "2019-11-22T16:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/1 "2019-11-22T16:18:40Z")
In a Pit thread, [Shodan taunts margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21986235&postcount=135) about the devastating case of PTSD she developed while serving in combat in Iraq. He’s intentionally inflicting pain on a person who experiences plenty of it. It was a throwaway line, completely unrelated to the thread. His only response to criticism was that he’s been [taunting margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21987776&postcount=244) since [2011](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600622). Is this really okay? Apart from death threats, is such reprehensible behavior on Shodan’s part really not worthy of a mod note if not a warning? I reported the post to Miller but he didn’t take any action or respond so I’m posting here. I’ve gone at it in the Pit. Most people who post there do. But some things are beyond the pale, even when, as is the case with the Pit, the pale is pretty damn big. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/2 "2019-11-22T16:29:17Z")
I’ve always wondered if the Pit creates more tension then it releases, and the above is part of what I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/3 "2019-11-22T16:58:42Z")
I don’t know that there is a limit, but I, for one, am glad that Shodan showed us his true colors. Based on his behavior and statements, we can each make our own judgement about how much weight to give anything he says in the future. Perhaps this is a benefit to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/4 "2019-11-22T18:08:34Z")
People used to think the Pit was just a place where you could use bad language and tell other people exactly what you thought of them, but just in recent weeks alone you will see people openly trolling and some examples of deeply personal insults being thrown about with impunity. Forget the language used, it is the intent, and I don’t believe the Pit was ever intended to be a place to get away with absolutely anything a sick mind could dream of. Its a release valve for the board not an anything goes cesspit. Its not about banned words or any of that shite, but there is absolutely no reason why Rule no.1 cannot apply in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/5 "2019-11-22T18:13:28Z")
Wait, people actually believe that a forum designed to allow posters to lie about, insult, and cyber bully other posters would act as a ‘safety valve’? Well, whoever set it up and created the rules obviously knows nothing about human nature. Or perhaps they did… That said, as long as there is a Pit, I don’t see a problem with some people using it more effectively than others. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/6 "2019-11-22T18:19:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wait, people actually believe that a forum designed to allow posters to lie about, insult, and cyber bully other posters would act as a ‘safety valve’? Designed to allow posters to lie about, insult, and cyber bully other posters? Here is the very first line of the Pit rules: > [@](#): > > The BBQ Pit is the forum for rants about the outside world or quarrels between posters - often the first turns into the second. Although the standards of discourse are looser than in the other forums, the Pit is NOT a free-for-all - you don’t have to be nice, but you do have to be reasonably civil. Please observe the following rules when posting in the Pit: Do you want to go read the rest of them before saying anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/7 "2019-11-22T18:23:25Z")
I definitely don’t see how insulting a veteran’s mental health in that way could be considered “reasonably civil” fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/8 "2019-11-22T18:27:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wait, people actually believe that a forum designed to allow posters to lie about, insult, and cyber bully other posters would act as a ‘safety valve’? Well, whoever set it up and created the rules obviously knows nothing about human nature. Or perhaps they did… As demonstrated ably by **bucketybuck** , those behaviors are explicitly not allowed by the rules and so that was not how it was designed. It can be argued that those behaviors are nevertheless allowed to occur, though, which I believe is one of the big reasons why this thread was created. I can’t blame you or anyone else for thinking that the Pit really is an “anything goes” kind of place, though, given what sometimes happens there. But I’ve seen warnings occur there and I’ve reported a couple of things Miller responded to so it really isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tricoteuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tricoteuse/32/4334_2.png) [@tricoteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tricoteuse)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/9 "2019-11-22T18:30:16Z")
I’m fairly new here so I had no idea about Shodan or Margin before that thread. It seems like most pit posters give as good as they get and it’s not hateful except regarding some very obvious trolls. In fact I like the banter and arguing and creative insults, and I’ve been following the Trump threads because people come up with a lot of good insights and news sources I never would have thought of. But what Shodan said to Margin was meant to be hurtful. It’s like making dead baby jokes to someone who lost a child and is still mourning. It’s also a really goddamn hateful thing to say to ANY veteran with PTSD, someone who wanted to serve in the military and wound up living through some horrific shit that changed their life for the worse and that they might never recover from it. It seems especially hateful considering all the problems with misogyny on this board. I know there have been threads about female posters leaving, and having trouble attracting new members. If people like Shodan can get away with that kind of thing without any kind of censure in any forum that’s not the kind of board I want to spend my time on so this female poster is gone, too. Don’t worry, I won’t let the door hit me in the butt. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/10 "2019-11-22T18:33:49Z")
I have started a discussion in the mod loop about the issue. Please be patient. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/11 "2019-11-22T18:33:55Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Designed to allow posters to lie about, insult, and cyber bully other posters? > > Here is the very first line of the Pit rules: > > Do you want to go read the rest of them before saying anything else? Not really. Since I’ve been here the Pit rules have been selectively applied. Sometimes VERY CREATIVELY applied such as with regards to Huey Freeman. So, what is explicitly written from a decade or so ago and what is implicitly allowed and tolerated are two VERY different things. So perhaps, the design wasn’t to be uncivil but the practical consequence of the rules is that incivility is a feature and not a bug. And frankly, that’s unavoidable. Aside from moderating in a way that would be ridiculous and show blatant favoritism, you cannot avoid grudges and escalations. You just can’t. Either people are going to leave due to the Pit, completely avoid the pit and be mocked for it, or rhetoric will get ‘uncivil.’ Which, like the so-called jerk rule is extraordinarily subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/12 "2019-11-22T18:37:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I have started a discussion in the mod loop about the issue. Please be patient. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/13 "2019-11-22T18:40:32Z")
ETA–saw the mod note, nm, will reserve judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/14 "2019-11-22T18:40:45Z")
> [@tricoteuse](#): > > I’m fairly new here so I had no idea about Shodan or Margin before that thread. > > It seems like most pit posters give as good as they get and it’s not hateful except regarding some very obvious trolls. In fact I like the banter and arguing and creative insults, and I’ve been following the Trump threads because people come up with a lot of good insights and news sources I never would have thought of. > > But what Shodan said to Margin was meant to be hurtful. It’s like making dead baby jokes to someone who lost a child and is still mourning. It’s also a really goddamn hateful thing to say to ANY veteran with PTSD, someone who wanted to serve in the military and wound up living through some horrific shit that changed their life for the worse and that they might never recover from it. > > It seems especially hateful considering all the problems with misogyny on this board. > > I know there have been threads about female posters leaving, and having trouble attracting new members. If people like Shodan can get away with that kind of thing without any kind of censure in any forum that’s not the kind of board I want to spend my time on so this female poster is gone, too. > > Don’t worry, I won’t let the door hit me in the butt. I am quoting this post because it is very insightful and deserves to appear in this thread twice. Thank you for adding your voice to the conversation, despite being a newbie! And welcome 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/15 "2019-11-22T18:42:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since I’ve been here the Pit rules have been selectively applied. Sometimes VERY CREATIVELY applied such as with regards to Huey Freeman. So, what is explicitly written from a decade or so ago and what is implicitly allowed and tolerated are two VERY different things. So perhaps, the design wasn’t to be uncivil but the practical consequence of the rules is that incivility is a feature and not a bug. > > And frankly, that’s unavoidable. Aside from moderating in a way that would be ridiculous and show blatant favoritism, you cannot avoid grudges and escalations. You just can’t. Either people are going to leave due to the Pit, completely avoid the pit and be mocked for it, or rhetoric will get ‘uncivil.’ Which, like the so-called jerk rule is extraordinarily subjective. The thing is, the rules don’t say you must be civil, just “reasonably” civil. That’s obviously a subjective determination but moderating is by design and necessity a subjective thing. And it’s possible to be both subjective and fair; I like to think I’ve done that successfully at other boards I’ve moderated and in my time as a Wikipedia admin. The way grudges and escalations are prevented is by a moderator stepping in if things are getting too far. That’s what is being asked for here. ---
**Author:** ![tricoteuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tricoteuse/32/4334_2.png) [@tricoteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tricoteuse)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/16 "2019-11-22T18:44:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I am quoting this post because it is very insightful and deserves to appear in this thread twice. Thank you for adding your voice to the conversation, despite being a newbie! And welcome 🙂 Thanks! I’m flattered! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/17 "2019-11-22T18:53:00Z")
Not sure if it violates the rules (and I think I reported it, but my phone was wonky yesterday), but **Steophan** called me a pedophile in that same thread: > [@In which Steophan hijacks an ATMB thread about misogyny by accusing Blasey Ford of false accusation](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-steophan-hijacks-an-atmb-thread-about-misogyny-by-accusing-blasey-ford-of-false-accusation/843610/178): > > You are a proven liar, and a paedophile. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/18 "2019-11-22T18:54:17Z")
Just to add to the “he knows perfectly well I have PTSD” discussion - when I Pitted the poster in question back in 2011, I asked specifically if she suffered from mental issues, and offered to back off if she did. I do not recall receiving any response. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/19 "2019-11-22T18:57:40Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The thing is, the rules don’t say you must be civil, just “reasonably” civil. That’s obviously a subjective determination but moderating is by design and necessity a subjective thing. And it’s possible to be both subjective and fair; I like to think I’ve done that successfully at other boards I’ve moderated and in my time as a Wikipedia admin. > > The way grudges and escalations are prevented is by a moderator stepping in if things are getting too far. That’s what is being asked for here. This discussion seems very similar to this discussion. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=856568](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=856568) Where Ed posted this: > [@](#): > > We reviewed the posts Chimera finds objectionable at the time they were initially reported to us, and we’ve now done so again. We’ve also reviewed posts by the relevant parties in the Pit. We find no evidence of a campaign of harassment. Morgenstern, it’s fair to say, doesn’t think much of Chimera and has made this plain in a couple threads where the two were on opposite sides of an argument. This isn’t against our rules. Arguably if Morgenstern were to disparage Chimera repeatedly in threads having nothing to do with the original disagreement, that would constitute harassment, but that’s not what’s been happening here so far as we can tell. Please note: > > 1. Insults are allowed in the Pit. Some of the insults are funny; some are vicious. It’s always been that way. If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t post in the Pit. > > 2. Be aware that information you post about yourself on this board may be used against you. Doing so may be a dick move. It’s not against our rules. > > 3. Our mistake was in leaving this thread open after it had ceased to be a discussion of board rules and had degenerated into bickering. We’ve not going to make that mistake again. We’ll leave this thread open briefly in case anyone has a point to make about our rules, enforcement, etc. If you want to rehash an old argument, take it to the Pit. and this > [@](#): > > “Don’t be a jerk” is the guiding principle behind our rules. It’s not, in itself, an enforceable rule. Everyone has a different notion of what constitutes jerkishness. To avoid endless arguments, we’ve tried to come up with bright line rules that are clear to all. The rule invoked by Chimera was the one against harassment. To repeat, we find no evidence he was being harassed as we understand the term. The posts reported by Chimera were mostly dismissive remarks. No doubt he didn’t like being addressed in such terms; they weren’t harassment by any stretch. Now obviously, this “don’t be a jerk” thing HAS been used several times as an enforceable rule. I’m not sure if the mods actually take notes on all these things, but there you have it from the horse’s mouth. Now if things have changed I think it’d be fair to actually update the rules. It would also help that if they were actually consolidated into one place. This is like playing Magic the Gathering but with the rules scattered to the four winds. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/20 "2019-11-22T18:59:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to add to the “he knows perfectly well I have PTSD” discussion - when I Pitted the poster in question back in 2011, I asked specifically if she suffered from mental issues, and offered to back off if she did. I do not recall receiving any response. > > Regards, > Shodan Here’s what you said in the Pit thread (I don’t know how to quote from another thread): "IANAL either, but you are confusing evidence with allegations. No one in their right mind (meaning people who are not like Babale and iiandyiiii) would say that a claim establishes itself. Evidence would be more like if Ford said that five other people were there, including her best friend at the time, and all or some of them confirmed it. None of them did, so no evidence in favor of Ford’s story - the opposite, in fact. And again, it is hard to have evidence about something when even the one making the accusation isn’t sure when or where it happened. Regards, Shodan \*\*PS - hi, margin - seems like you were gone for a while - welcome back! What’s it like in the psych ward - did you make friends there?" \*\*(emphasis added) That’s an oddly specific insult for someone you didn’t know to suffer from a severe mental illness. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=2)