# Just how reprehensible can you be in the Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 22, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820 "2019-11-22T16:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/201 "2019-11-24T02:05:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s a big ole nope. Reality in this thread contradicts your assertion. The precedent was clear. Ed’s words were written in very easy to understand English. Furthermore, moderation of the jerk rule was clarified. Both clarifications were deliberately ignored to placate a howling mob. > [@jz78817](#): > > no. we celebrate sanctions against a poster who is unpopular because he made his attacks personal. > > you don’t have the right to free speech on someone else’s platform. your right to free speech is not being infringed just because the SDMB is no longer willing to host it. Freedom of speech means you can’t be arrested or silenced by the government. IT doesn’t mean anyone else has to host or tolerate your bullshit. If you get de-platformed, all that means is the rest of us think you’re an asshole, and we’re showing you the door. You celebrate getting your way by a vocal, organized, and long game playing group threatening to flounce. Well, that was a precedent that I warned against as well because once you capitulate to a threat all you get is an empowered adversary. You get a temporary respite then a new threat. Furthermore, you clearly misunderstand the point of the post. It was primarily about how systems that claim to have rules and claim to follow rules typically are exploited by those who claim to want rules and order. The truth is for many that rules and order is not what is desired. What is desired is a personably favored outcome prettied up with the perceptibly farcical veneer of objective rules. Aka mob rules, regardless of fervent and reality ignoring denials. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/202 "2019-11-24T02:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > because it sanctions an unpopular poster while ignoring clearly stated language that explicitly allows such behavior > … > What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule. Don’t care one way or another about **Shodan**. I don’t know the man. But if we’re one step closer to realizing that bon mots about mental hospitals and mental illnesses are no longer funny, then bring on the mob rule. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/203 "2019-11-24T02:11:33Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > [Relevant link.](https://xkcd.com/1357/) The actual relevant link would be to the morgenstern post where this behavior was allowed. Try not to get sidetracked by a simile. Again, this isn’t about free speech. This is about ignoring clear as day precedent on the exact same subject. I could probably find 100 or so jerkish posts and post them here. Probably get dinged with the new don’t post links to 100 jerkish things in a thread rule though. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/204 "2019-11-24T02:14:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Reality in this thread contradicts your assertion. Show me the injuries. Show me the broken bones, the blood, the burned buildings, the lynchings. Or show me people pissed off at jerkish behavior in a social setting. Show me the former, and your “mob rule” business makes sense. Otherwise, it’s just silly hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/205 "2019-11-24T02:28:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Show me the injuries. Show me the broken bones, the blood, the burned buildings, the lynchings. > > Or show me people pissed off at jerkish behavior in a social setting. > > Show me the former, and your “mob rule” business makes sense. Otherwise, it’s just silly hyperbole. Right, online mobs are a completely novel concept!:rolleyes: I can’t show you any physical injuries from the post under complaint. I can show you where it was explicitly allowed. Anyways, I probably should stop posting inconvenient facts that will be ignored aside from the fact that it was octopus posting them. Now if I happened to have another board full of supporters maybe I’d have a case since facts and reason are obviously irrelevant. Maybe we can take it up in the Pit, no compulsion involved!, where the majority can post freely and the minority can’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/206 "2019-11-24T02:32:43Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Once again, we see evidence the Pit is toxic. I agree that trying to moderate how mean a person can be is a challenge. Allowing some insults inevitably leads to allowing all insults, or else drawing arbitrary lines. > > The argument for it is the idea that somehow it serves as a “safety valve” allowing posters to vent their frustrations and then return to the civil parts of the board. But it doesn’t work that way. Instead, it causes complaints to fester and bad feelings to grow. And that doesn’t stay contained in the Pit. Just look at this thread, or any thread in ATMB about moderation. Every single one at some point has to admonish someone for insults. And how many are closed because they devolve into sniping matches? … > > So, retain the Pit as a place for rants about life or the world, but do not allow insults of board members. I concur, well worded! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/207 "2019-11-24T02:51:29Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > If you get de-platformed, all that means is the rest of us think you’re an asshole, and we’re showing you the door. “WE” don’t get to show people the door, that’s the mods. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/208 "2019-11-24T02:52:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You folks who celebrate a contrived outcome because it sanctions an unpopular poster while ignoring clearly stated language that explicitly allows such behavior are missing the big picture. You know I get a lot of grief about support for unpleasant speech by unpleasant people but that’s because I understand that it’s important for a society that professes to desire procedure, rules, codes of conduct, regulations, etc in order to have predictability to actually have members that advocate for what is claimed to be desired. What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule. Really no. Social norms are made by groups expressing what they do and do not find acceptable within their social group. That’s not mob rule, that’s human interaction. I cannot say with certainty that my take on it is not colored by the fact that **Shodan** _otherwise_ behaves so jerkishly, but insulting someone regarding their identified mental illness, is, IMHO, something reprehensible enough that it should be over the line. An immediate apology would have likely deserved a benefit of the doubt and slack cut … but not immediately recognizing that such was a reasonable human thing to do eliminates that benefit. Yeah good call. But I do still do wonder why those not prepared for stepping in these piles of shit walk in the Pit? I never saw it as a safety release valve - more as a containment field. Those of us who don’t want to deal with posters being ugly can just not go there, with tighter moderation to be had elsewhere. But yes it is still a mud fight pit, not one that you throw bricks in. And really sturm and drang over one warning? “Popular” or “unpopular” one warning is not a big deal if you are not otherwise a recalcitrant jerk who will keep getting more. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/209 "2019-11-24T02:53:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Right, online mobs are a completely novel concept!:rolleyes: I’m certainly not accusing you of coming up with that absurd analogy yourself. I’m just accusing you of trotting out an old, ridiculous bit of hyperbole, time after time after time. “Mob rule” as shorthand for normal social behavior (i.e., telling jerks to go away) is one of the sillier things that people do in order to defend bad behavior. > [@DSeid](#): > > I cannot say with certainty that my take on it is not colored by the fact that **Shodan** _otherwise_ behaves so jerkishly, but insulting someone regarding their identified mental illness, is, IMHO, something reprehensible enough that it should be over the line. I’m pretty sure I can. I had lots of cordial conversations with morgenstern before he stepped over that line. It’s a pretty clear line. I’m glad the board is recognizing it now, and really really hope they’ll continue doing so going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/210 "2019-11-24T11:26:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Mob rule” as shorthand for normal social behavior (i.e., telling jerks to go away) is one of the sillier things that people do in order to defend bad behavior. I would have agreed with you had I not just come home from being chased out of the local minimart by a frenzied mob of SJWs who seized upon me for NO REASON. I was minding my own business, masturbating in the produce aisle, as you do, and before I knew it… (before you judge me, you should have seen those shameless, slutty cantaloupes) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/211 "2019-11-24T11:50:16Z")
And here I thought we were bees or something, turns out we’re kangaroos! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/212 "2019-11-24T12:45:25Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. Because he knowingly used someone’s mental illness and **trauma** as a means to attack them. This is something that, even in real life, is considered beyond the pale. Even in a context where you are allowed to throw insults, some types of insults are considered to cross the line. As evidence this line is true, I offer what happened when Trump insulted that reporter by mocking his disability. Such was considered beyond the pale, even after he had been attacking people left and right. Such is clearly seen by society as something that goes further, that crosses an additional line I also note this line has been brought up in ATMB before. When **Morgenstern** did the same thing to **Chimera** , many Dopers argued it crossed a line, even in the Pit. This isn’t the only such line, of course. You mentioned hate speech. There are also a couple interrelated lines that are banned in the Pit: threatening violence or wishing harm/death upon a poster. Even in a context where we allow insults, that is considered to cross the line. You also can’t reveal private information about a poster. These and other such lines are written into the [Pit Rules](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985). Severe mental illness is a trauma. Using that trauma to attack someone hurts them psychologically, in ways that insulting them for saying something stupid does not. I do not ask for calling out behaviors to be forbidden, just directly using a mental illness (or, hell, a physical disability) as a way to attack someone. As Ed said back then, the purpose is “not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even [in the Pit].” It’s not about insulting people too much, but about things that decent people would never do, even when allowed to insult people. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/213 "2019-11-24T15:10:46Z")
Well, if we are using Ed’s words as some sort of precedent… wait we aren’t. I just need to ask Tuba about the obvious double standards. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/214 "2019-11-24T15:36:30Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Meh, I don’t like what Shodan said, but Huey Freeman was allowed to say worse on a daily basis for several months. Huey Freeman ultimately got banned, and the thread that started the beginning of Huey’s end was one in which Huey referred to Shodan’s “imported child.” And everyone, even people who didn’t like Shodan, come to Shodan’s defense because Huey had somehow “attacked a child,” which was total horse bleep of course because I highly doubt Shodan’s adopted child reads SDMB. It was an attack on Shodan, to get under his skin. Everyone condemned Huey widely, called him a “racist” for it, and I’m convinced tried to drive him off the site, which they succeeded in doing. Again, I never did defend the comment; it was a disgusting thing to say, but Huey was so widely and repeatedly attacked that he was ultimately, I think, baited into getting himself banned. But here we have Shodan, months later, directly attempting to make a person with mental health issues distressed. I think this is worse than what Huey did – like far worse. Ever stop to consider how many veterans commit suicide?! It’s not a small number. This is a horrible post. One of the worst I’ve seen on this site. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/215 "2019-11-24T15:42:12Z")
Do you remember what he got banned for? Posting too much in the Pit! Why was he posting so much in the Pit? Because he was attacked in the Pit. The real reason he was banned is the same reason Shodan got a warning. A finger held to the wind detected a Giraffe-a-cane. At least let’s be transparent with the obvious double standards. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/216 "2019-11-24T16:05:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A finger held to the wind detected a Giraffe-a-cane. Stop trying to make BoardWar happen. It’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/217 "2019-11-24T16:39:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why was he posting so much in the Pit? Because he was attacked in the Pit. No. Huey only posted in the pit because he knew his preferred method of ‘discourse’ would get him banned in other fora. He was very upfront about that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/218 "2019-11-24T17:11:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Stop trying to make BoardWar happen. It’s not going to happen. Your 120 plus threads shitting on this board is proof to the contrary. Stirring up trouble, the fact that the mods here participate there, the fact that the mods here are obviously influenced by discussions they have there, all point to a very unhealthy relationship. I’m sure precedent of rules matters when it’s convenient just as they don’t matter when it’s convenient. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/219 "2019-11-24T17:36:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Your 120 plus threads shitting on this board is proof to the contrary. Stirring up trouble, the fact that the mods here participate there, the fact that the mods here are obviously influenced by discussions they have there, all point to a very unhealthy relationship. I’m sure precedent of rules matters when it’s convenient just as they don’t matter when it’s convenient. You do realize that the Giraffe board is mostly inhabited by dopers, right? I’ve been in both boards for a long time, and there’s not than just the snark threads you see as just so problematic. Lately, I’ve felt a lot more welcome there than here. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/220 "2019-11-24T17:40:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule. There is no “mob”. We’re a primarily Italian social organization. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Good man/woman/dog. Buy yourself a beer, and consider it’s on me. **Miller** , grab yourself a highlife, on me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=12)