# Just how reprehensible can you be in the Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 22, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820 "2019-11-22T16:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/121 "2019-11-23T12:45:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wait, you’re making an accusation against me? I thought it was just throw away silliness. Absolutely, all accusations and allegations of sexual assault and rape should be taken seriously. > > If you’re making an accusation against me, then I will cooperate with any investigation, as would be appropriate in order to treat such allegations with seriousness. I invite you to speak about your experiences, and there is never anything wrong with someone honestly sharing their story. Unsupported accusations _are_ throwaway silliness. That’s the point. If I could support it, I’d go to the police. As would, to pick one example, Ms Ford. But for some reason you think her accusation against someone she seems to have never met is credible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/122 "2019-11-23T12:48:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Unsupported accusations _are_ throwaway silliness. That’s the point. > > If I could support it, I’d go to the police. As would, to pick one example, Ms Ford. But for some reason you think her accusation against someone she seems to have never met is credible. I’m confused. Are you making an accusation or are you not? Are you deliberately fabricating an accusation to make some sort of point (that still remains opaque to me)? We obviously disagree about Ford, but that should go to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/123 "2019-11-23T12:58:52Z")
“We can’t be sure if he really meant it or not”. What a load of rubbish, to the point of being an abdication of duty. Frankly, trying to claim that there isn’t enough information to act upon in this case is an insult to our intelligence. I know certain mods take pride in letting everything go in the pit but if there is absolutely no line that can be crossed then they should change the rules to actually say that. Careful what you say folks, there is no line so better not to talk about yourself unless you are prepared to have your personal details used against you by certain characters. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/124 "2019-11-23T13:07:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > First off, what does this question have to do with this thread? The situation here is one where the person does actually know about the metaphorical “mother’s footwear.” What makes **Shodan** ’s attack on someone for being mentally ill so bad is that they are 100% aware that they were mentally ill and why. He is deliberately using someone’s personal weakness in an attempt to cause them psychological damage. He has that much contempt for a woman in combat. And the way he does it so casually demonstrates that he regularly does worse. > > But, even if you posted this in a more appropriate thread–one where the insulter did not know the victim at all, the logic here is weird. People don’t get offended because they actually believe what the person says. No black person is offended by racists because they actually think their race is inferior. They are offended because that belief that is stated is actually one that causes harm to them. > > Same thing here. The belief that it’s okay to belittle those with mental illnesses is harmful to those of us with mental illnesses. It sees us as less than human, and thus you can treat us poorly, dismiss our needs, leave us in places where we are inhumanely treated, etc. If we don’t stand up and say that belief is offensive, then that belief will continue, and thus so will the actions based on it. > > There’s also embedded in the comment a level of misogyny and a hatred towards those who suffered in the military for us. Both of those ideas also cause harm. Hell, those ideas directly lead to the situation that **margin** described–women not being supported in combat and winding up with PTSD. > > So, sure. The comment itself may not cause any harm or change in my life beyond anger in the moment. But the comment does not exist in a vacuum. It is part of something bigger than can and does cause harm. > > Though, frankly, if you ask most people, they probably don’t even think this far about it–it’s more automatic. Emotions tend to be. However, as someone who deals with both appropriate and inappropriate anger in his own life, I’ve taken the time to sit down and think about why I react this way. And, while not everyone’s trigger is like mine, I think the underlying idea is a basic part of the human experience. > > Though I invite others who have considered why things make them angry to say other things. I do wonder, however, if it would be better served in a separate thread about the topic. Thanks for the response. I actually agree with your last sentence; that thought occurred to me after the edit window closed. ---
**Author:** ![tricoteuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tricoteuse/32/4334_2.png) [@tricoteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tricoteuse)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/125 "2019-11-23T13:35:44Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > I agree. This is not the first time Shodan has said this kind of thing to margin. His defense is that he’s an asshole to everyone he disagrees with. But he wasn’t disagreeing with her–he wasn’t engaging with her in that thread. Out of the blue he questions her about a psych ward visit. > > And he’s got a history here! He’s not some poster who took a debate too far in a heated moment. > > I’m done. This isn’t a place I want to be anymore. There’s just too much misogyny and racism and transphobia and gratuitous nastiness, and it’s just not worth it to stick around for the “do farts smell” threads. In the name of “diversity of opinion,” the mods are going to drive out everyone but a handful of posters. And we all know who they are. > > So, yeah, this is my grand farewell. I wouldn’t make it except to make a point: women are indeed leaving this board. And I won’t let the door hit me on my way out. I will be right behind you. :mad: ☹ And true to what I said in the pit thread I got in touch with a veteran’s outreach center and I will be delivering turkey dinners to housebound veterans on Thursday, and there’s a bunch of stuff upcoming for Christmas. And next time I go to my local yarn shop I’m gonig to ask the owner if she’d be willing to offer free classes and discounts on materials to service members and veterans, for those who want to learn a new hobby and socialize a bit. And thank you, Margin, sharing your story here. I hope you get the help and healing that you deserve, not just as a combat veteran but as a decent person and an American citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/126 "2019-11-23T13:35:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Thanks for everyone’s patience while we talked this out in the mod loop. > > The issue chiefly revolves around one question: did **Shodan** know **margin** ’s history with mental illness when he made his comment? Or was he taking a generic shot at a poster with whom he’s had sharp disagreements in the past, that happened to hit closer to home than he expected? Why would anyone crack wise about “hey how was your time in the psych ward ?” _à propos_ of nothing ? It’s a complete non-sequitur that wouldn’t work as an insult \*\*unless \*\*you knew that person has, in fact, been in a psych ward or at the very least acknowledge they have psych issues legit enough that it’d be a possibility (not that, sincerely, there is anything wrong or “weak” with that, anymore than going to get a plaster cast on a broken leg is - but \*\*Shodan \*\* along with a sizable portion of the population evidently thinks it contemptible). ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/127 "2019-11-23T13:38:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I revealed I have children on this board. You know how often they’ve been attacked in the Pit? You know how often a mod has said one word about the inappropriateness of said attacks? You used to frequently admonish posters who cursed in the pit because you said that let your children read over your shoulder and you often would also accuse posters who swore in the pit of being pedophiles. You brought your children and pedophilia into the discussion and only then did people start pushing back. I don’t think that is a fair point you are making. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/128 "2019-11-23T14:39:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That rule apparently doesnt apply in the Pit, and dont ry to tell me it does. > > A solid fraction of Pit posts are totally jerkish. Having anticipated your post, I conveniently answered it earlier. 😉 > [@What\_Exit](#): > > It’s funny, I just looked at some of the rules, for the first time since around 2009. It just isn’t that hard to not be a jerk and not break the rules and get warnings. > > I can’t understand why Octopus gets so caught up in “the Rules” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/129 "2019-11-23T15:01:24Z")
Since **Miller** commented, I think **margin** gave new information–specifically, her 2007 [Pit thread all about her experiences with PTSD and the VA](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417626). As I understand the chain of events, it goes something like this: -margin writes that Pit thread. In it, she describes being in a psych ward. -Shodan is active in the Pit at the time of that thread, but doesn’t post in it. -A few years later, he asks her if she has an actual diagnosis. -Recently, Shodan asks her mockingly about her experiences being in the psych ward. -When confronted with this awfulness, he posts a variety of things intended to imply that he says awful shit like this to everyone, so it doesn’t mean he knew about her experiences. -When asked directly whether he knew, he refuses to answer. It strains credulity, given that new information, to think that he really didn’t know. I hope **Miller** et al will look at that thread–and look at his non-denials–and reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/130 "2019-11-23T15:12:54Z")
Coming back to something here now that I’m more awake: > [@Miller](#): > > **Shodan** himself provided a link to a thread where he asked **margin** if she had an actual diagnosis, and offered to back off if she did, but she never answered. This is evidence that he did not, in fact, know about **margin** ’s history with mental illness, but it’s very weak evidence It isn’t evidence at all. It looked to me like another attack: someone who’s claiming that a person’s statements aren’t based on anything rational is likely to take the information that they have such a diagnosis as further reason to dismiss what they’re saying, no matter how little the information backs the claim that it should be dismissed. That’s how margin took it: > [@margin](#): > > I went back and looked at that thread. Was I supposed to take Shodan’s—I’m paraphrasing here----“Are you mentally ill? Say so and I’ll backoff,” ? seriously in any way at all? It comes across as a request that I give him another weapon, given that I get the impression he’d turn around and use it as an attack later on----indeed, that is what he attempted to do in the pit. The implication is that if you’re a mentally-ill woman you can be dismissed. and I want to back that that was an entirely reasonable way to take it. I’m not saying it’s unreasonable of the mods to look at it and see a genuine question from someone with good intentions (though the current refusal to apologize rather argues against that); but that’s not the only plausible interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/131 "2019-11-23T15:12:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Since **Miller** commented, I think **margin** gave new information–specifically, her 2007 [Pit thread all about her experiences with PTSD and the VA](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417626). > > As I understand the chain of events, it goes something like this: > -margin writes that Pit thread. In it, she describes being in a psych ward. > -Shodan is active in the Pit at the time of that thread, but doesn’t post in it. > -A few years later, he asks her if she has an actual diagnosis. > -Recently, Shodan asks her mockingly about her experiences being in the psych ward. > -When confronted with this awfulness, he posts a variety of things intended to imply that he says awful shit like this to everyone, so it doesn’t mean he knew about her experiences. > -When asked directly whether he knew, he refuses to answer. > > It strains credulity, given that new information, to think that he really didn’t know. I hope **Miller** et al will look at that thread–and look at his non-denials–and reconsider. Reconsider what? The behavior that was explicitly allowed by the administration the last time this subject came up? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/132 "2019-11-23T15:26:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > With the evidence for either position being so weak, I don’t feel comfortable moderating the situation. I understand your opinion, and accept that it’s a difficult call. But I disagree with the evaluation of the strength of the evidence. It’s not weak; it’s yet another in a long established pattern. To me, it’s a pretty clear cut case. At this point I’m not sure we have a consensus on what being a jerk is. Instances like this are making time spent here at SMDB less enjoyable for me, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/133 "2019-11-23T15:27:22Z")
The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/134 "2019-11-23T15:29:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. This looks different than Miller’s argument earlier. Does the background of the insult matter or not? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/135 "2019-11-23T15:34:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) Why isn’t that enough? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/136 "2019-11-23T15:38:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. As Potter Stewart said, “I know it when I see it.” This is the same problem that obscenity laws face, and one of the solutions is to apply ‘local community standards.’ If somebody says something, even in the Pit, that makes the bulk of the community cringe, then it may be beyond the pale. This isn’t tyranny, it’s just an understanding that it’s the community which decides what is and isn’t obscene (or in our case, jerkish). ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/137 "2019-11-23T15:39:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > This isn’t tyranny, it’s just an understanding that it’s the community which decides what is and isn’t obscene (or in our case, jerkish). The community doesn’t decide things here and never has. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/138 "2019-11-23T15:46:30Z")
Great job mods – we have lost two female posters in this very thread, either one of which contributes more sincerity to this place than a dozen Shodans. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/139 "2019-11-23T15:48:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. Is this you posting as a moderator, or a poster? Because it completely disagrees with Miller’s post. Edit: you know what? Forget it. Have fun with your Shodans and your Ditkas. I need a looooong break from this place. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/140 "2019-11-23T15:52:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. You now have a lot of stickies to take down, including those stating the Pit rules and any others that use the nebulous standard of not being a jerk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=8)