# Just how reprehensible can you be in the Pit? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 22, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820 "2019-11-22T16:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/141 "2019-11-23T15:57:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This looks different than Miller’s argument earlier. Does the background of the insult matter or not? It does, and Miller’s post stands. But here I’m inquiring about the general, not the specific. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/142 "2019-11-23T16:00:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It does. But here I’m inquiring about the general, not the specific. Toleration of blatant rules lawyering trolls is not good for the long term health of the Dope. You have a simple rule that covers things well. Instead your post plays into rules lawyering. This doesn’t seem like a very sound idea. If you don’t think Shodan was too much of a jerk overall, fine, plenty will disagree, more won’t even care. But if you start trying to define more rules and build that bright line that posters like Octopus want so much, you will without question make the place only more welcoming for trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/143 "2019-11-23T16:07:42Z")
The rule doesn’t seem complicated to me: **Don’t use the personal suffering that a person has shared as a weapon against them**. If Rita has shared about her double mastectomy, or Leroy about his cancer-related orchidectomy, mocking them for no longer being a real woman/man is a jerk move. If Frank talks about his kid’s anxiety, mocking him for causing that anxiety is awful. If someone is caring for an elderly parent with Alzheimer’s, saying that they got the disease so they could forget what a failure their child was is inexcusable. How is this complicated? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/144 "2019-11-23T16:08:06Z")
Wow! I find it difficult to believe there is no punishment available to sanction Shodan. I’m not privvy to every insult he’s thrown at other posters. Buy, with ‘just’ this particular incident in mind he was being a ‘jerk’. There’s no other way to read it. He meant it to hurt and belittle. The fact that ‘margin’ is a woman makes it misogynistic. He knows it was meant to be hurtful. He’ll never admit that or offer a disingenuous apology. But he can/should be punished. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/145 "2019-11-23T16:12:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The rule doesn’t seem complicated to me: **Don’t use the personal suffering that a person has shared as a weapon against them**. If Rita has shared about her double mastectomy, or Leroy about his cancer-related orchidectomy, mocking them for no longer being a real woman/man is a jerk move. If Frank talks about his kid’s anxiety, mocking him for causing that anxiety is awful. If someone is caring for an elderly parent with Alzheimer’s, saying that they got the disease so they could forget what a failure their child was is inexcusable. > > How is this complicated? That’s just swell if we assume every member reads every post in every thread and, therefore, knows that Jebediah posted about the time he fell dick-first into a prickly pear patch before telling Jebediah to go fuck a cactus. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/146 "2019-11-23T16:14:01Z")
I think the rule could very easily be something like “don’t be egregiously jerkish, even in the Pit”. One instance could be a note or warning, depending on how bad, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/147 "2019-11-23T16:18:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t see how I can assume that, because the comment wasn’t made as part of disagreeing with something margin had said; it’s a standalone dig, entirely out of other context. Shodan wasn’t otherwise even replying to margin, but to manson1972. There is a context there: [this swipe](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21985751&postcount=121) **margin** made at **Shodan** about fifteen posts earlier. Also, [this shot at post 93](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21982440&postcount=93). The comment wasn’t completely out-of-the-blue, it was in response to several insulting posts **margin** made to **Shodan**. > [@Babale](#): > > This was a huge mistake. I think the idea that Shodan just happened to settle on those insults for Margin, time after time, completely by coincidence is absolutely ludicrous. Time after time? There was one thread in 2011, and the post two days ago. That’s twice in _eight years._ > [@Kobal2](#): > > Why would anyone crack wise about “hey how was your time in the psych ward ?” _à propos_ of nothing ? It’s a complete non-sequitur that wouldn’t work as an insult \*\*unless \*\*you knew that person has, in fact, been in a psych ward or at the very least acknowledge they have psych issues legit enough that it’d be a possibility (not that, sincerely, there is anything wrong or “weak” with that, anymore than going to get a plaster cast on a broken leg is - but \*\*Shodan \*\* along with a sizable portion of the population evidently thinks it contemptible). Calling people “crazy” as an insult is pretty common, even when you don’t have certain knowledge of the other person’s mental health status. Specific references to “psych wards” aren’t exactly unprecedented. [Here’s **Emiliana** using it as an insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19280746&postcount=105) against another poster a few years ago. [Here’s you using it as an insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17161376&postcount=2), although not against a poster. That’s two from a very casual search of the specific term “psych ward” in the Pit, and not bothering to click through any of the results that were five plus page monstrosities. I suspect I could turn up more if I looked for variations like “institution,” “loony bin,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/148 "2019-11-23T16:30:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Great job mods – we have lost two female posters in this very thread, either one of which contributes more sincerity to this place than a dozen Shodans. two that we know about. seriously, the mods can and should do better than this. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/149 "2019-11-23T16:45:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No it’s not. **iiandyiiii** has repeatedly said, in the thread being discussed here, that unsupported accusations of sexual crimes are perfectly acceptable. He’s just a hypocrite. That’s nice. My opinion is that calling anyone a pedophile \*purely as a insult \*is wrong, and the person doing it is a jerk. Call Epstein one sure. But not a anon poster just for a insult. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/150 "2019-11-23T16:49:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Calling people “crazy” as an insult is pretty common, even when you don’t have certain knowledge of the other person’s mental health status. Specific references to “psych wards” aren’t exactly unprecedented. [Here’s **Emiliana** using it as an insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19280746&postcount=105) against another poster a few years ago. The irony is [rather thick](https://memeguy.com/photos/images/friend-spotted-this-at-the-church-in-my-hometown-the-irony-is-so-thick-i-could-grill-it-169550.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/151 "2019-11-23T16:52:33Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > One of the rare times I agree with **DrDeth**. Thanks, but other than gun control, I think we agree more than you think. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/152 "2019-11-23T16:57:18Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn’t seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that). > > Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don’t be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it. Certainly, the rule is “ **No Personal insults** ”, a rule that works well in all other forums. Try it!😛 ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/153 "2019-11-23T17:18:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? Because > [@Huey Freeman is banned](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huey-freeman-is-banned/828587/25): > > That type of attack is destructive to community because it closes off any incentive to form community. Why bother participating when people like him will use any and all manner to attack you over it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/154 "2019-11-23T17:25:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This looks different than Miller’s argument earlier. Does the background of the insult matter or not? Not entirely different. The evidence that **Shodan** was aware and deliberately referencing a shortish Pit thread from twelve years ago is pretty weak, which renders the question of, “Was this too mean?” moot. But even if that was conclusively established, I’m still not a fan of moderating stuff for being “too mean.” ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/155 "2019-11-23T17:32:33Z")
Then you will have a board full of men who victim blame 11-year-old gang rape victims, attack rape victims in general against all evidence, describe women as “hysterical”, and in general behave like Shodan. That is not fighting ignorance. That is enabling it. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/156 "2019-11-23T17:35:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not entirely different. The evidence that **Shodan** was aware and deliberately referencing a shortish Pit thread from twelve years ago is pretty weak, which renders the question of, “Was this too mean?” moot. But even if that was conclusively established, I’m still not a fan of moderating stuff for being “too mean.” As best I can recall, the only people who have brought up the _too mean_ argument are moderators. _Too mean_ isn’t the issue. _Off-fucking-limits_ is. You don’t attack someone’s children or someone’s relationship with their children. You don’t attack someone’s actual mental health issues (as opposed to a mere “You’re crazy!”). You don’t insult someone’s physical disability. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/157 "2019-11-23T17:40:16Z")
So now it’s all **margin’s** fault? Nice victim blaming there, kudos. New levels of shitty. **slow clap** ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/158 "2019-11-23T17:43:14Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > … is such reprehensible behavior on Shodan’s part really not worthy of a mod note if not a warning? … The answer is pretty clear: you can be _quite reprehensible_ in the Pit. I agree that some things should be off-limits and that someone who is not a complete jerk would apologize if they even inadvertently crossed that line. But the line itself is hard to cross in The Pit, so declared in this thread. To my mind there is no question that Shodan is a jerk at best, across all fora. Not sure why he has not been reigned in better but his jerkishness is given wide berth for reasons that are hard to fathom. He has moments of adding value to discussions, if only by provoking some quality responses that the rest of us learn some things from, but only moments. Overall he is a net negative to the board. IMHO. _OTOH_ The Pit is pretty easy to avoid. Meaningful, even respectful, conversation can and has broken out there, and creative funny invectives can sometimes be read, but mostly if one goes there one should expect to see people choosing to engage in ugly behaviors. And it is further clarified in this discussion that quite ugly indeed is okay there. I do NOT think skipping over, or ignoring, trollish posters in discussions in other fora is a fair expectation. Hijacking trolls in particular should be stopped in their tracks there. But those who enter The Pit should not be surprised that they end up having to scrape some vile shit like Shodan’s posts off their shoes. Again IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/159 "2019-11-23T17:46:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There is a context there: [this swipe](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21985751&postcount=121) **margin** made at **Shodan** about fifteen posts earlier. Also, [this shot at post 93](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21982440&postcount=93). The comment wasn’t completely out-of-the-blue, it was in response to several insulting posts **margin** made to **Shodan**. > > Time after time? There was one thread in 2011, and the post two days ago. That’s twice in _eight years._ > > Calling people “crazy” as an insult is pretty common, even when you don’t have certain knowledge of the other person’s mental health status. Specific references to “psych wards” aren’t exactly unprecedented. [Here’s **Emiliana** using it as an insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19280746&postcount=105) against another poster a few years ago. [Here’s you using it as an insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17161376&postcount=2), although not against a poster. That’s two from a very casual search of the specific term “psych ward” in the Pit, and not bothering to click through any of the results that were five plus page monstrosities. I suspect I could turn up more if I looked for variations like “institution,” “loony bin,” etc. So calling him out for lying about the facts is unacceptable? I just want to get this clear. Shodan presents lies, gets called on it, and because he doesn’t use expletives it’s acceptable. What’s not acceptable is being sarcastic at the endless lies----and ALWAYS they are about rape victims, women, etc., etc., He tells the same lies over and over again, but he’s polite about it. You can’t call him out on something he _chooses_ to do, but it’s acceptable for him to accuse rape victims of lying, for _decades_ without proof, but every last response to him must be perfect and polite and come with cites. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820/160 "2019-11-23T17:46:52Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t attack someone’s children or someone’s relationship with their children. You don’t attack someone’s actual mental health issues (as opposed to a mere “You’re crazy!”). You don’t insult someone’s physical disability. decent people sure don’t. and what about people who don’t even think that’s being a jerk? decent people don’t want to be around them, not IRL and not online. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-reprehensible-can-you-be-in-the-pit/843820.md?page=9)