# Just how strange IS this period? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412 "2003-12-16T22:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/41 "2003-12-19T01:55:02Z")
**Airblairxxx** : you need to check this out: > [@](#): > > Mariah remakes Phil Collins? Link here: [http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/poflames.adp](http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/poflames.adp) Search the page for the above string, and read. Believe me, it’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/42 "2003-12-19T02:04:59Z")
Regarding JFK and Nixon, time to bring this old chestnut: [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/11/09/politics/main248266.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/11/09/politics/main248266.shtml) > [@](#): > > Back in 1960, more than a few outraged Republicans urged Nixon to challenge the results in Illinois and Texas, even if that meant putting the election on hold for several weeks – or even months. > > But Nixon refused to pursue the matter, saying at the time that he did not want to be responsible for delaying the transition of power from one administration to the next. > > That was true, but only as far as it went. In an interview some years later, Nixon told a reporter he had given very serious thought to taking legal action that, if successful, would have reversed the results in the two contested states – and made him the president-elect. > > He said the main reason he decided against that course was because Kennedy had won the popular vote. And even though JFK’s margin of victory was extremely slender (barely more than 100,000 votes) it was a clear plurality, and Nixon said he had no stomach for a fight that would pit him against the will of the people – even if it did lead him to an electoral triumph. What I see as strange today, is that Republicans never forget about Chicago, but by golly there is nothing wrong on telling Democrats to forget about Florida. However, Nixon is redeemed a little in the end for taking the will of the majority into account, something the current “butterfly ballot-late votes-voter list purge” president and media have ignored to this day. (And that is even before one gets to the recount can of worms, so for peace sake, I’ll skip that) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/43 "2003-12-19T09:20:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > I did check the transcript. This is President Bush’s only mention of al Qaeda Oh, are we playing the “he never said ‘imminent threat’ in those words” game again? Or can I bring up these other quotes from the press conference? > [@](#): > > _In response to a question about whether the Iraq war was politically motivated:_ > I will never forget the lessons of September the 11th, 2001. Terrorists attacked us. They killed thousands of our fellow citizens. And it could happen again. And, therefore, I will deal with threats – threats that are emerging and real. Why is he referring to 9/11 for a question that has nothing to do with 9/11? 😕 > [@](#): > > Iraq is a battle in the war on terror. No WMDs, no imminent threat, no support for terrorists… _how_ is Iraq related to the war on terror, George? > [@](#): > > We had a disagreement on this issue about Saddam Hussein and his threat. I obviously felt like September the 11th changed the equation to the point where we needed to deal with emerging threats and deal with them in a way that would make America more secure. Again, WTF does Saddam have _anything_ to do with 9/11? There are no big secrets here; every one of those reporters in the room knew Bush was trying to infer (again) that Saddam was a terrorist threat to the United States, despite the total lack of evidence to support it. And they were – and still are – willing to give him a free pass on it. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/44 "2003-12-19T10:29:05Z")
You claimed that in his most recent press conference, President Bush “continued to equate Iraq and al Qaeda, even though it’s long been established that there is no such link.” You did not say, “continued to equate Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.” You said “equate Iraq and al Qaeda.” Yet in none of the quotations you provided did Bush make any such link between Iraq and al Qaeda. To the contrary, the gist of his statement was that on Sept. 11, al Qaeda woke him to the need to nip other potential terrorists (e.g., Iraq) in the bud. You may agree or disagree with that policy. But you are trying to put words in his mouth that he did not say. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/45 "2003-12-19T14:33:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Airblairxxx_ > … the public has lost all sense of skepticism. That the art of discernment, of evaluation, has become lost. That it’s just easier to take the path of least resistance because the messages, the media, the sheer volume of all things broadcast at us has become so overwhelming that critical thinking requires too much energy. … We’ve had strange times before, caused by transient political conditions (Viet Nam, Watergate, the Cold War). I submit that these times are different; they’ve been caused by a permanent change in our society… This made me smile. Not because there is not truth here. There is. What makes me smile is that if this were written in the late 1960s, it might have gone something like this: > [@](#): > > _Hypothetical post by Algernon’s father in 1969_ > The public has lost all sense of responsibility. Respect for our institutions (government, military, personal property, etc.) has become lost. It’s just easier to take the path of throwing rocks and burning buildings in protest, than it is to enable change from the inside. The media images of war, free love, protests and riots have warped the common sense of this generation. The sheer volume of all things broadcast at us has become so overwhelming that critical thinking requires too much energy. You’ve all become lemmings, marching towards your own demise. We’ve had strange times before, caused by transient political conditions (Korea, WWII, the Depression). I submit that these times are different; they’ve been caused by a permanent change in our society. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/46 "2003-12-19T23:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > To the contrary, the gist of his statement was that on Sept. 11, al Qaeda woke him to the need to nip other potential terrorists (e.g., Iraq) in the bud. You may agree or disagree with that policy. But you are trying to put words in his mouth that he did not say. First, maybe it’s just me, but if someone asks George W. Bush a question about Iraq, and he replies with an answer about _al Qaeda,_ Osama bin Laden, or the 9/11 attacks (which were carried out by _al Qaeda_), I think it’s reasonable to believe that he does so because he’s trying to associate the two with each other – it’s an attempt to imply what he cannot claim outright. Secondly, the claim that Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was a terrorist threat to the United States (potential or actual) is still unproven. We’ve got no WMDs, no Iraqi agents in the US, no intercontenental remote-controlled anthrax-spraying drones, _zilcho._ Which pops the whole “invading Iraq is part of the war on terrorism” argument, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/47 "2003-12-20T00:49:05Z")
The 60’s were probably the greatest change between generations (in my lifetime) but it produced some of the best cars the world could offer, sigh… I would say 9/11 is hands down the weirdest thing in my lifetime. I still can’t watch the video’s of aircraft slamming into the WTC and not stare in stark disbelief. I would have bet large sums of money that “first contact” would be made on the Phil Donahue show first. But you could go back to the mid 1800’s and experience communes of free sex and communes of religious austerity (Oneida Commune of New York vs the Zoarites of Ohio). The 60’s weren’t as rebellious as we would like to remember. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Raven\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Raven\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Raven_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/48 "2003-12-20T03:29:01Z")
Howyadoin, I grew up in the 1980s believing that I would most likely die as a result of a nuclear war between the US, the Soviet Union and China. I remember reading sober prognostications of mammoth tank battles in the Fulda Gap. I remember brinksmanship, detente, client wars, move and counter-move with the lives of every person on the planet in play. I remember looking at the GE aircraft engine plant down the road from me in Lynn, MA and seeing it as the bringer of my eventual doom, since it certainly was in the target list of a Soviet warhead or two. There was a sense that nothing long-term was worth worrying about, since eventually some nutjob would start WWIII and that would be that. Add to this energy “crises”, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, the decline of the European economies into stagflation causing a flirtation with Socialism and Communism. The idea that we were the last generation to see the Earth whole was prevalent. And then, so suddenly, came 1989. The scales seemed to fall from our eyes as we all saw the world for what it was; not a massive gameboard where two giants grappled for supremacy, but a place where ordinary people could control their destinies. Alas, the hammer fell quickly in places like Tiananmen Square, but it gave a glimpse of what could be. Things have changed since, and not always for the better. The frivolous but productive 1990s have given way to the partisanship and rancor of this decade. There has been a radical decentralization of, and a exponential increase in volume of, information sources. This has given rise to “narrowcasting”, causing people to focus more tightly on their belief set. This is at least partially due to the inability to separate the wheat from the chaff due to the sheer volume of voices screaming from the rooftops. A side effect of this is to lump the great mass of opposing opinions, given the difficulty of assessing validity, as propaganda of the other side. This increases one’s sense of paranoia and unease, being always watchful for the latest perceived slander, spin or conspiracy. Perhaps some people want things to feel strange and out-of-control so they may propose their own solutions, gift-wrapped in a velvet glove. -Rav ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/49 "2003-12-20T21:20:43Z")
"We’ve had strange times before, caused by transient political conditions (Viet Nam, Watergate, the Cold War). I submit that these times are different; they’ve been caused by a permanent change in our society–the overabundance of information, if you will. " that’s a good point-the political conditions of the past were strange, but they were transient; -Today we face a permanent change . And that’s what is really scary. Americans have never worried about their personal safety or military attack.(other than the 3 weeks of the Cuban missile crisis.) We always knew that the Russians were cruel, but they were smart enough to confine their cruelty to Poland,Vietnam, and Afghanistan–enough friction to irritate the USA, but not enough to start a nuke war. International politics was based on cold logic . Now , we have an new problem(not “overabundance of information” )–it’s terrorism. There is no good way to fight it, and that’s why people either love or hate Bush with so much passion–they realize that whatever happens, and whatever Bush does, events are running out of control. During the cold war, we believed that careful leaders could control events, and our fear was that maybe a leader (ours or theirs) might miscalculate. Now, we have this gut level feeling that no amount of calculation will save us–there are too many fanatics out there. The anti-Bush crowd fear that things are out of control, and scream for using reason, logic and careful consideration to re-establish a sense of order. The pro-Bush crowd fear that things are out of control, and hope that Bush’s strong intervention will somehow re-establish order and calm But both sides are afraid that it may be impossible. And that is something new to the American psyche. Up till now, every problem had a solution. Now, we arent so sure. Airblair holds his 20 month old son, and doesnt know what future he will have. That’s scary. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Raven\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Raven\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Raven_1)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/50 "2003-12-21T04:22:01Z")
Howyadoin, So tell me, who’s got their contractor lined up to build their fallout shelter? Just asking, is all… -Rav ---
**Author:** ![MyOld85MG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MyOld85MG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyOld85MG)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/51 "2003-12-21T05:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chappachula \* > \*\*The anti-Bush crowd fear that things are out of control, and scream for using reason, logic and careful consideration to re-establish a sense of order. The pro-Bush crowd fear that things are out of control, and hope that Bush’s strong intervention will somehow re-establish order and calm > > But both sides are afraid that it may be impossible. And that is something new to the American psyche. Up till now, every problem had a solution. Now, we arent so sure. Airblair holds his 20 month old son, and doesnt know what future he will have. That’s scary. \*\* Wow. Y’know, makes me think of Galbraith’s description of the behind-the-scenes propagandizing that occurred just before the stock market crash of 1929. The overall population wasn’t exactly getting jittery then, but apparently the powers-that-be were getting jittery – bad jittery. And they kept saying things would be okay, just keep right on investing, etc. Now, I think, we all have many things to be jittery about: a changing economy, a changing climate, new and scary diseases, planes crashing into buildings, population continuing to boom, etc. But the wierdest thing is, the powers-that-be are pretty much sticking with the line: “don’t worry, keep spending, be happy, things are getting better, we’ll take care of it”. To me, this is wierder than the 1920’s (that was just about the market) and wierder than the 1960’s (when, at least, there was a spirited debate going on). Now, there seems to be a lot less real debate and a lot more just blowing with the political winds. It’s the disconnect between the real issues and the rhetoric… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by The\_Raven_ > **So tell me, who’s got their contractor lined up to build their fallout shelter?** Much as I hate to say it (and I’m not acting on it, either), I think we’re more likely to need self-sufficiency – as in, a piece of arable high ground, lots of supplies, and defensive weapons – than a fallout shelter. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412/52 "2003-12-21T05:28:14Z")
There’s an important difference in the 60s. A lot of what was going around in the 60s, esp the hippie flower power psychedelic stuff, was not a defensive response to threats, but an attempt to remake the world in a better way, to take advantage of the material prosperity and social freedom of America and create an entirely new way of life that was a more direct, more responsive life than the old way. Sometimes I think the problem with the modern world isnt’ that the 60s happened, as conservatives believe, but that the social revolution that began then never really came to fruition. The government pulled out of Vietnam, sexual mores caught up with scientific advances, causes like feminism advanced, but there was never any radical restructuring of American society. Maybe if we’d actually entered the Age of Aquarius, instead of just celebrating it, we wouldn’t now be trying to patch over the effects of 40 years of treating Third World countries like shit. I guess we’ll never know. The present strangeness is almsot all bad stuff – Islamic fundie terrorists, neocons and Pubbies running Congress AND the White House, American Fundies in power … it feels a lot more like I imagine the period prior to WWII must have felt, with fascists in Germany and Italy, commies in Russia and total pigs in Japan plotting to overtake the world. That was a much more dangerous period for America and the world in general than the present one … I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-how-strange-is-this-period/219412.md?page=2)