# Just-in-time work scheduling **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550 "2015-07-18T21:50:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/21 "2015-07-19T15:25:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I wonder how late they can cancel though, for states where there _are_ laws. And I don’ t know if those laws are the norm. There are people here in DC who commute 2 hours each way. Now, generally not for retail jobs. But if you have to drop the kids off, then head to work, there could be situations where you’re already out the door before they tell you you’re not needed. Especially if you’re relying on the buses here, which are slow. I tried to find the answer to your question and couldn’t find it. But I did read this interesting [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/shift-change-just-time-scheduling-creates-chaos-workers-n95881), which presents management’s point-of-view. According to that piece, some business require their employees to call in every morning to find out if they are on duty. Imagine how much chaos this brings to a parent’s life. “Sorry, kid. I know I promised to take you to the doctor for your tummy ache, but Big Lots wants me to come in today even though I told Boss Lady that I needed the day off. Just take another aspirin and we’ll try to meet with the doctor in another three months.” With housing costs skyrocking in major cities, low-wage earners are being pushed into suburbs, which translates into longer commuting times for them. Crazy scheduling is compounding an already stressful existence. Stress is responsible for many of the social ills that’s bringing us down. That’s why government should intervene. I don’t want to share the roads with a bunch of stressed, sleep-deprived, depressed people. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/22 "2015-07-19T15:52:22Z")
Perhaps there’s a big-picture economic argument about labor shortages? Now, obviously if there were really severe labor shortages then the market would adjust, and employers would have to offer more regular and longer hours to attract employees. But in the current case, it seems to me that there are a lot of people who are entirely willing and able to do productive full time economic activity. However they can’t, because they’re stuck making full-time commitments to a part-time job. They spend all of their spare time and effort dealing with the chaos of an uncertain schedule. They can’t get a second job, or really even do small odd jobs on the side. Even other people have to pick up the slack for things like emergency child care, preventing them from doing economically productive things. Overall, seems like having people on-call could delay economic recovery. Someone starting or expanding a business might not be able to hire part time workers even though there are plenty of people that want to work a second job. They’d have to offer higher pay and benefits to convince people to quit their first part time job, rather than paying the market rate for people working a second job. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/23 "2015-07-19T16:02:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I tried to find the answer to your question and couldn’t find it. But I did read this interesting [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/shift-change-just-time-scheduling-creates-chaos-workers-n95881), which presents management’s point-of-view. I haven’t found anything either, but thanks for that link. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/24 "2015-07-20T00:46:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I tried to find the answer to your question and couldn’t find it. But I did read this interesting [article](http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/shift-change-just-time-scheduling-creates-chaos-workers-n95881), which presents management’s point-of-view. Wow. That shows what jerks the management spokespeople are. Happy employees are so important that we give them few enough hours that they don’t get benefits. Workers love the flexibility? Workers would probably love a full-time job more, and some control over their hours. It’s easy to measure the benefit of “right-sizing” (hate that buzzword) but harder to measure the impact of employees ignoring customers or not suggesting that extra purchase or working slow because their schedules are off. I like the idea of paying more for unscheduled time, but here is another possibility - forcing employers to pay something for time the employee must reserve to report to work if needed. That represents a lost opportunity to do other things, including having another job, and should be compensated. If the flexible schedules are so valuable to the employer, they should be willing to pay for the flexibility. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/25 "2015-07-20T00:50:59Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > If you don’t like it, work somewhere else. Just-in-time scheduling results in lower prices for consumer goods, which most benefits low-income people (that is, the people liberals pretend to help). All places they want to work do this. In fact, often they want to have second jobs but can’t. That means they are eligible for public assistance, which means I pay more in taxes. Why do you want to increase my taxes? And if you knew anything about economics, you’d know that prices are set by market demand, so the excess profits go into the pockets of the owners. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/26 "2015-07-20T01:39:38Z")
It’s hardly new. 35 years ago, I worked in the stockroom of a dept store, and had to go before my manager every day to see if I worked the next day. Often, he’d say, “I don’t know. Call me in the morning.” Often, I couldn’t call (too poor to afford a phone; I’d often use the pay phone down the street), so I went in to work. Sometimes, he said, “I don’t have any hours for you.” I said, “Today?” He replied, “This week.” The real shame is I was too young and stupid to have complained about it. Not that it would’ve done any good, but complaining would’ve been better than just taking it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/27 "2015-07-20T02:03:48Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > It’s hardly new. Certain aspects of it are new. And it is occurring in new kinds of places. The extent of it is new for the modern age. Technology is partially to blame (or thank, depending upon your perspective). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/28 "2015-07-20T02:20:56Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > If you don’t like it, work somewhere else. Just-in-time scheduling results in lower prices for consumer goods, which most benefits low-income people (that is, the people liberals pretend to help). Then shouldn’t you be seeking this same benefit? You should go ask your employer to reduce your salary so you can benefit from the lower cost of living that it will cause. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/29 "2015-07-20T15:16:36Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > If you don’t like it, work somewhere else. Just-in-time scheduling results in lower prices for consumer goods, which most benefits low-income people (that is, the people liberals pretend to help). Sure, that worked for 70-hour workweeks and safe work environments, too. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The point wasn’t that it was or wasn’t bad for business. The point was that it is terrible for the employees. The Invisible Hand Of The Free Market will not eliminate this, only government action can regulate it. Sometimes yes, the government must tell businesses what they can’t do in order to protect the workers, who otherwise are helpless. And don’t jump in chiming that they can work elsewhere. Oftentimes, they can’t. The current economy is a buyer’s market for labor. When businesses actually have to compete for workers, you might have a point. If it’s not an endemic problem, it shouldn’t be solved by the government, because while it’s clearly bad for some employees, it might be good for others. If it becomes dominant in industry, so that a large number of workers are forced to take this type of employment due to having no other alternatives, then laws might be appropriate. So, in my mind the question is, how pervasive a problem is this? ---
**Author:** ![RagingxMarmoset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@RagingxMarmoset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RagingxMarmoset)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/30 "2015-07-20T15:30:20Z")
When I was in retail management, I scheduled _at least_ a week out. If someone called in or failed to show, I’d call a few folks and see if they could cover. If they couldn’t, I had to suck it up and work a little harder that day. No one’s job was ever tied to being available on their day off. Because I was fair and consistent, and they knew what to expect, I grew a core of fiercely loyal and dependable workers. In fact, I often went out of my way to accommodate _their_ schedule requests, so when it came time for me to ask for help, they didn’t hesitate to step up. It made my life and theirs much easier. Retailers know what their business is going to look like from day to day, and if you don’t, you suck at retail. Maybe the retailers should focus on hiring good managers, rather than dumping their scheduling failings on the workers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/31 "2015-07-20T16:28:30Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Certain aspects of it are new. And it is occurring in new kinds of places. The extent of it is new for the modern age. Technology is partially to blame (or thank, depending upon your perspective). From the article, it appears that what is new is the immediate computation of staffing needed based on customer traffic patterns. This kind of thing has been common in manufacturing for ages, but now they are applying it to retail. However the rookie mistake the retailer are making is having barely adequate capacity. In manufacturing you learn that you never build a factory that runs at near 100% normally, since when when you have a demand spike or when a machine goes down you are screwed. Companies which have barely enough staff are going to lose business when there is an unexpected demand spike and people walk out instead of dealing with the lines. This is harder to measure than cost savings through reducing hours, so I wonder if it is taken into consideration. (The local manager can get judged on staffing costs, but not immediately on customer satisfaction.) Before you say retailers are too smart to fall into this trap, remember that it appears WalMart did. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/32 "2015-07-20T19:36:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Retailers often schedule workers last-minute, sometimes requiring workers to call in shortly before their scheduled shift to see if they are needed. Should the manner in which work is scheduled be regulated by the government, and to what degree? > > Two articles describe the phenomenon. I apologize for any paywalls. > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/12/workers-schedules-could-be-the-next-labor-fight-in-the-d-c-council/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/12/workers-schedules-could-be-the-next-labor-fight-in-the-d-c-council/) > [http://www.wsj.com/articles/retailers-under-fire-for-work-schedules-1428890401](http://www.wsj.com/articles/retailers-under-fire-for-work-schedules-1428890401) > > I am unfamiliar with existing regulations. It appears that they are typically at the state level. > > My default position for most exchanges of goods/services/money is to allow willing parties to negotiate with minimal interference. People with inherently flexible lives would lose a bargaining chip if they are not allowed to use it. That said, I’m not convinced that’s really a problem. We don’t allow people to work for free. And while being on call is perhaps not work, it certainly keeps people from working elsewhere. I’m a big fan of people working, working hard, and working a lot. You can pull in a decent pile of cash on minimum wage if you can get enough hours, but that may require being able to hold down two jobs. > > Unpredictable work schedules make working two jobs difficult, if not impossible. They also may make some jobs unprofitable. Gas and childcare can make a job a net loss, depending on schedule. This may complicate government aid programs that require employment. > > From the employers’ view, worker flexibility likely increases profitability. I’ve never run a retail store. Perhaps customer and operational demands are complete chaos. > > I’ve covered all the points that I can think of at the moment. To the question I ask at the start of the OP: I don’t know. I think I would be comfortable with some sort of government interference in this case, acknowledging that it would likely have some negative effect on business. However, I’m not sure how it should manifest. > > Thoughts? Data? Incoherent rants? I’m not a fan of the minimum wage and many other intrusions into the business world by counterproductive statists. However, this, treating de-facto employees as ‘contractors’, and the abuse of the salary system all strike me as unnecessarily exploitative. I’m not sure how you regulate it in such a way that you get a net benefit however. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/33 "2015-07-20T20:40:14Z")
> [@RagingxMarmoset](#): > > When I was in retail management, I scheduled _at least_ a week out. If someone called in or failed to show, I’d call a few folks and see if they could cover. If they couldn’t, I had to suck it up and work a little harder that day. No one’s job was ever tied to being available on their day off. Because I was fair and consistent, and they knew what to expect, I grew a core of fiercely loyal and dependable workers. In fact, I often went out of my way to accommodate _their_ schedule requests, so when it came time for me to ask for help, they didn’t hesitate to step up. It made my life and theirs much easier. > > Retailers know what their business is going to look like from day to day, and if you don’t, you suck at retail. Maybe the retailers should focus on hiring good managers, rather than dumping their scheduling failings on the workers. ``` It's actually worse than dumping their schedule failings on the kids- they want the kids to take all the risks of the unpredictable ebbs and flows of the business. When I was a kid, retail and fast food tried to schedule according to the business they expected at a given day or time- more staff during weekday lunchtime in a business district, more staff on weekends at an enclosed mall, that sort of thing. And when people called in sick, they would call others to see if they could come in. It may have been an advantage if you were willing to come in to cover, but it was not a negative if you couldn't. If business was slower than expected, they'd look for volunteers to leave early. Schedules were not always consistent week to week , but they were usually posted days in advance, and the inconsistencies were relatively minor and usually caused by another workers request for a day off. (if Susie usually worked 12-8 on Tuesday and I'm usually off Tuesday , I might be scheduled if she asked for Tuesday off.) It's different now. My daughter worked for a small local company and was scheduled for "call in shifts". That meant she was expected to be available on Monday from 11-6, for example and she called in Monday morning to find out if she was needed. If someone called in sick or the weather was bad (kids crafts=busier in bad weather.), she would be told to come in. If it was sunny she'd be told not to bother. But meanwhile,she hadn't been able to make any other plans for the time between 10-7. Couldn't work at a second job, couldn't plan to work on a paper for school. Couldn't do anything but leave the day free just in case her job wanted her to work. ``` Funny thing though- my son worked for a large national retailer and they didn’t do these call-in shifts (although sometimes the schedule wasn’t completed on time) They would call looking for substitutes when someone called in sick, employees could call in the morning _of their own volition_ to see if more staff was needed but the company did not essentially demand first claim on their time but refuse to pay for it. I wonder if this call-in nonsense is predominantly being done by smaller businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550/34 "2015-07-20T20:49:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > However the rookie mistake the retailer are making is having barely adequate capacity. In manufacturing you learn that you never build a factory that runs at near 100% normally, since when when you have a demand spike or when a machine goes down you are screwed. Companies which have barely enough staff are going to lose business when there is an unexpected demand spike and people walk out instead of dealing with the lines. This is harder to measure than cost savings through reducing hours, so I wonder if it is taken into consideration. (The local manager can get judged on staffing costs, but not immediately on customer satisfaction.) Before you say retailers are too smart to fall into this trap, remember that it appears WalMart did. Retail margins are stretched extremely thin - especially with competition from places like amazon, a company that makes heat use of robots. It seems to me that retailers are often stuck between a rock and a hard place, and no one really knows what the right answer is, or even if their is a right answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-in-time-work-scheduling/725550.md?page=1)