# Just like reality? \[Race, crime, and home security commercials\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592 "2009-02-12T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/101 "2009-02-16T20:45:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > And there’s nothing wrong with profiling in general. There’s something wrong with some kinds of profiling in some kinds of situations. > > -FrL- Could you give two examples, please. One example of “good” profiling, and one of “bad” profiling. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/102 "2009-02-16T20:49:11Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Not a justification so much as an explanation of facts. My contention is that to portray a black person as clownish and in need of chiding by his white peers, today, would _by itself_ be a portrayal of the person as being stupid because he is black. That’s the fact I’m contending is true, and my explanation as to why this fact is a fact involves reference to the history of this kind of imagery in the US. > > I don’t justify or excuse the fact–as you should know since I said I hope it comes someday soon to be no longer true, and why would I “excuse” or “justify” something I don’t think should be true?–but I argue that it is a fact. > > I don’t know if I’m contradicting you or not. As I said before, _if_ you’re just saying you hope someday that it will be possible for black people to be portrayed as clowns among white people, then I agree with you. _If_ you’re saying blacks should be portrayed as clowns amongst whites _today,_ I disagree with you. The basis for my disagreement should be clear from the above. > > -FrL- Ok, so you’ve offered an explanation for the taboo I have described. Still, I don’t think you have contradicted or undermined my position. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/103 "2009-02-16T20:57:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ok, so you’ve offered an explanation for the taboo I have described. Still, I don’t think you have contradicted or undermined my position. That’s fair enough, but I’m left curious about something. Your comments in this thread have seemed to me to be _critical_ of the taboo you mentioned. Was I wrong to think you are critical of it? If I wasn’t wrong, then what is the basis of your criticism? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/104 "2009-02-16T20:59:01Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > Could you give two examples, please. One example of “good” profiling, and one of “bad” profiling. Sure, and I’ll even give you good and bad examples of _racial_ profiling. Profiling potential employees by race is bad. Profiling potential dates by race is (if not exactly good then) perfectly acceptable. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/105 "2009-02-16T21:15:28Z")
That’s not profiling, that’s discrimination. I agree that there is both good and bad discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/106 "2009-02-16T21:21:06Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That’s fair enough, but I’m left curious about something. Your comments in this thread have seemed to me to be _critical_ of the taboo you mentioned. Was I wrong to think you are critical of it? If I wasn’t wrong, then what is the basis of your criticism? For one thing, I think it’s rather mean-spirited that whites, men, and white men tend to bear the brunt of negative portrayals. For another, I think that political correctness in general is a destructive force in western culture. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/107 "2009-02-16T21:25:15Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > That’s not profiling, that’s discrimination. I agree that there is both good and bad discrimination. You don’t think it’s possible to profile potential employees or dates by race? I’m not sure how to argue against that. If profiling is not designed specifically for use in some discriminatory practice or other, I’m not sure what use anyone would think profiling has for any situation at all. In both the cases I mentioned, the profiling is sure to _lead_ to discrimination (in one case bad, the other good) but what enables the discrimination, _in my examples_, is a prior act of _profiling_. What are you calling “profiling”? To my knowledge, profiling is forming presumptions concerning behavior based on class membership. Is that not what it is? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/108 "2009-02-16T22:10:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For one thing, I think it’s rather mean-spirited that whites, men, and white men tend to bear the brunt of negative portrayals. For another, I think that political correctness in general is a destructive force in western culture. And some non-whites and non-men think they should take their fair share, and have a lot of catching up to do. Do you prefer perpetuating race and gender based stereotypes to political correctness? I find it more destructive to portray women as obsessed with cleaning products and diamonds. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/109 "2009-02-16T22:12:58Z")
> [@brazil](#): > > Sure, I will try to come up with some examples. Just so we are clear, your position is that the phenomenon I have described does not occur in modern, mainstream television and movies? What phenomenon is that? This is what you posited on pg 1. > [@brazil84](#): > > :What amuses me more than those commercials is regular TV shows and movies where blacks tend to be portrayed in a very positive light, for example George Jefferson and Heathcliff Huxtable. > > If the show needs someone to play the role of an idiot/dufus, it’s almost never a black person and it’s usually a white man. Let’s take movies. Off the top of my head, I can think of plenty that deviate from this phenomenon of which you speak. Who was the buffoon in _The Fifth Element_? Who was the idiot in _16 Blocks_? In _Charlie’s Angels II_, what kind of character did Bernie Mac play? What roles can Martin Lawrence always be called upon to take? Good luck on finding any TV show that supports your argument. There hasn’t been enough popular multi-racial television programming that would allow you take one or two and make any global statements about them. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/110 "2009-02-16T22:20:38Z")
So let’s see. If black people are portrayed as successful and clean-living, it’s not right because it’s not “real”. But when white men are portrayed as buffoons, it’s not right because…? Seems to me the image of the buffoonish white man has as much basis in reality as the sassy black single mother. Which is to say, a little bit, in a cartoonish way, because it’s on TV. And as Ian Shoales once said, a nation that can’t tell the difference between TV screens and real life deserves everything that happens to it. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/111 "2009-02-16T22:27:26Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Do you prefer perpetuating race and gender based stereotypes to political correctness? For me it would be fairness. I’m a guy, and I use cleaning products. I’m sure there are lots of guys who have tons of cleaning products and are into clean, but are sick of seeing commercials where we are idiots who would forget to breath if the woman standing there complacently rolling her eyes and explaining in baby-talk what we need to do weren’t there. A: Women apparently need men to be denigrated for a product to appeal to them, B: Men apparently have no interest in cleaning products, and are too stupid to be left unsupervised by a woman. Hey advertisers, I’m a guy. You respect me, I’m way more likely to buy your new floor cleaner. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/112 "2009-02-16T22:31:05Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, on All in the Family, George was just as racist as Archie, except biased in favor of blacks. And on the Jeffersons, he was pretty much the only racist character–he referred to white neighbor (Tom?) as honky and to the mixed race daughter, Jenny (who ends up marrying Lionel) as a zebra. White people don’t put him in his place, but pretty much everyone is more open minded than George. I have nothing to add to this thread, except to say that Tom definitely speaks up to George. Loudly and often. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/113 "2009-02-16T22:31:13Z")
> [@j666](#): > > And some non-whites and non-men think they should take their fair share, and have a lot of catching up to do. So what? > [@](#): > > Do you prefer perpetuating race and gender based stereotypes to political correctness? I’m not sure, but in any event, those are not the only two options. Seems to me you are presenting a [false dilemma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/114 "2009-02-16T22:33:35Z")
Speaking as another cleaning kind of guy, I have never thought to give a damn about that at all. I’m way more concerned about _why_ it is effective to sell cleaning products to women that way. Do they feel so marginalized and condescended to by men that they feel validated when one of the few areas in which they are allowed to be expert is enforced by male stupidity? Is this rigid division of ability a way of underscoring the importance of gendered rolls? Is a man who is so far away from (common, feminine) tasks like cleaning that he can’t begin to grasp how to implement them more like a fool or a prince? I’m reminded of Eddie Izzard’s joke about Prince Charles meeting commoners: “Oh, you’re a plumber? What on Earth is that?” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/115 "2009-02-16T23:19:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Good luck on finding any TV show that supports your argument. I don’t need luck, since I’m reporting only what I see on my TV: **Cory in the House** : Cory’s father (black male) is a succesful chef who is recruited to be the head chef at the Whitehouse. The two dufuses (dufi?) on the show are the President (white male) and Newt Livingston III (white male). **Suite Life of Zack and Cody** : Everyone on the show is pretty goofy, but the black male (Mr. Moseby) is intelligent, responsible, and the manager of a hotel. The two biggest dufuses on the show are London (asian female) and Arwin (white male). (Interesting that somebody chose an asian female for the role of idiot. Did I mention that she is also super-rich?) **That’s So Raven**. Raven, the main character (black female) is an average student but looks positively brilliant compared to her idiot friend Chelsea Daniels (white female). Raven’s father (black male) runs a restaurant (same dad as with Cory in the House); Raven’s mother (black female) is a law student. **Handy Manny** : I believe there are no black characters on this show. The one white male, Mr. Lopart, is constantly getting himself into trouble with his arrogant attitude. The hero of the show is Manuel Garcia. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/116 "2009-02-16T23:21:19Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > **That’s So Raven**. Raven, the main character (black female) is an average student but looks positively brilliant compared to her idiot friend Chelsea Daniels (white female). Raven’s father (black male) runs a restaurant (same dad as with Cory in the House); Raven’s mother (black female) is a law student. I haven’t seen any of the other shows you mention, but pretty much _every_ character in That’s So Raven is a complete and utter idiot. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/117 "2009-02-16T23:28:00Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I haven’t seen any of the other shows you mention, but pretty much _every_ character in That’s So Raven is a complete and utter idiot. Comon, who is smarter – Raven or Chelsea? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/118 "2009-02-16T23:31:18Z")
If all you’re watching is children’s television, you aren’t really in the position to judge anyone’s intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/119 "2009-02-16T23:39:10Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > For me it would be fairness. I’m a guy, and I use cleaning products. I’m sure there are lots of guys who have tons of cleaning products and are into clean, but are sick of seeing commercials where we are idiots who would forget to breath if the woman standing there complacently rolling her eyes and explaining in baby-talk what we need to do weren’t there. > > A: Women apparently need men to be denigrated for a product to appeal to them, > > B: Men apparently have no interest in cleaning products, and are too stupid to be left unsupervised by a woman. > > Hey advertisers, I’m a guy. You respect me, I’m way more likely to buy your new floor cleaner. I am more familiar with the commercials that show women dancing with their dusters. But if any product I do like portrays men as blithering helpless idiots when it comes to house work, I promise to complain to the manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/120 "2009-02-16T23:39:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Comon, who is smarter – Raven or Chelsea? I honestly can’t remember either of them showing particular brains over the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592.md?page=7)