# Just like reality? \[Race, crime, and home security commercials\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592 "2009-02-12T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/161 "2009-02-18T01:20:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s my suggestion - if you’re scared, stay home. Here’s my suggestion. If you’re scared, something is seriously fucked up and needs fixing. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/162 "2009-02-18T02:20:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please don’t strawman me. It’s hardly outrageous to make an attack ad which shows an actual murder convict, let out on weekend pass, who fled and commited serious violent crimes. Given the decision to use an actual convict, it may very well be that the only choice was Willie Horton, who happens to be black. I get the strong sense that you don’t know what the term “strawman” means. > [@](#): > > In that case, you shouldn’t assume that Willie Horton was chosen because of his race. Wait… you’re arguing that home security ads are racist because they show white criminals, AND that the Willie Horton ad was not racist? > [@](#): > > ROTFLMAO. Actually, the Bush campaign did make such an ad. Most of the actors who played the role of criminals were white. > > LOLOL. You may be the only person who thinks that the Willie Horton ad wasn’t designed to play to racist fears. > [@](#): > > Here’s my suggestion: Rethink your position. Please give me some reason to do so. You certainly haven’t yet. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/163 "2009-02-18T02:32:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I get the strong sense that you don’t know what the term “strawman” means. “strawman” means to argue against a position your opponent never took. Usually the invented position is one which is similar to the opponent’s position, but much much weaker. In this case, you pretended that I had argued that Bush’s supporters had no choice but to make the ad itself. Of course I made no such argument. > [@](#): > > Wait… you’re arguing that home security ads are racist because they show white criminals, AND that the Willie Horton ad was not racist? I’m not sure if it’s wise to use the word “racist,” but anyway, my position is that the tendency to cast whites in the role of criminal shows racial bias; the fact that the “Weekend Passes” advertisement featured a black man does not necessarily indicate such a bias. > [@](#): > > You may be the only person who thinks that the Willie Horton ad wasn’t designed to play to racist fears. I don’t know if it was or it wasn’t. > [@](#): > > Please give me some reason to do so. Lol. And of course you refuse to re-think your position, even after being shown to be 100% wrong. You said – as far as I can tell – that you were “sure” that a Bush campaign ad, similar to the Willie Horton ad, which used actors to play the role of criminals would have used mainly blacks. And yet such an ad was actually made, and it used mainly whites to play the criminals. A fact which you were “sure” of turns out to be flat out wrong. And yet you won’t rethink your position. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/164 "2009-02-18T02:54:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol. And of course you refuse to re-think your position, even after being shown to be 100% wrong. > > You said – as far as I can tell – that you were “sure” that a Bush campaign ad, similar to the Willie Horton ad, which used actors to play the role of criminals would have used mainly blacks. And yet such an ad was actually made, and it used mainly whites to play the criminals. > > A fact which you were “sure” of turns out to be flat out wrong. And yet you won’t rethink your position. Are you asserting that the “revolving door” ad featured only white actors? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/165 "2009-02-18T03:03:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > the fact that the “Weekend Passes” advertisement featured a black man does not necessarily indicate such a bias. > > […] > > I don’t know if it was or it wasn’t [designed to play to racist fears]. [“But almost immediately after it began running, as a Brown University study of the ad revealed, GOP consultant Larry McCarthy, who worked for National Security PAC, stealthily inserted a looming mug shot of Horton in a substitute version of the ad, revealing the convict to be – ta da! – an African-American. McCarthy said the photo of Horton used in the ad was “every suburban mother’s greatest fear.””](http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/08/25/horton/index.html) I was incorrect in saying Atwater apologized for the Horton ad; he apologized for another equally scummy campaign move. The “Revolving Door” ad, officially a Bush campaign product, featured mostly white actors, but was designed to resemble the Horton ad (“Weekend Passes”), which was not officially a campaign ad. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/166 "2009-02-18T03:06:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you asserting that the “revolving door” ad featured only white actors? No I am not. I am asserting exactly what I asserted. Which is that it used mainly white actors to play the role of criminals. “mainly” is not the same thing as “only.” Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/167 "2009-02-18T03:06:50Z")
Okay, in advance of your answer, I’ll assume that 1) you were referring to the “revolving door” ad, and 2) that you find it meaningful that many of the actors were white. The revolving door ad did feature many white actors… going in to jail. Most of the ones coming out the revolving door in the ad were not white. See [here](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Revolving-Door-(television-advertisement)) for a discussion: > [@](#): > > Perhaps due to negative response from some quarters of the supposed racial undertones of the “Willie Horton” ad, the convicts depicted in the “Revolving Door” ad were overwhelmingly caucasian. It has been noted, however, that most of the ones leaving the prison are, in fact, Black or Hispanic. Whether this was intentional or a chance occurrence is unknown. So, are you still laughing your ass off, or are you rethinking your position? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/168 "2009-02-18T03:11:05Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Here’s my suggestion. If you’re scared, something is seriously fucked up and needs fixing. Exactly - rather than bitch about whether criminals in commercials are white, quit being afraid that the black man is comin’ ta git ya! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/169 "2009-02-18T04:23:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, in advance of your answer, I’ll assume that 1) you were referring to the “revolving door” ad, and 2) that you find it meaningful that many of the actors were white. Meaningful mainly because it shows you were dead wrong. > [@](#): > > The revolving door ad did feature many white actors… going in to jail. Most of the ones coming out the revolving door in the ad were not white. Yeah, I noticed that point being made in the wiki article. Frankly, it smacks of liberals desparate to find something racist about the ad. Why? Because it’s a revolving door. The point is that people go in and are sent out immediately thereafter. So it’s hard to see any significance in the distinction between who’s going in and who’s going out. The whole point of the ad is that it’s the same people going in as coming right out again. But anyway, none of this changes the fact that you were dead wrong. > [@](#): > > So, are you still laughing your ass off, or are you rethinking your position? Still laughing. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/170 "2009-02-18T09:41:15Z")
Brazil has a good point. Just look how no one makes fun of Jenna or Tracy on 30 Rock. They are never ever the butt of jokes, especially not stereotypical black or female ones. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/171 "2009-02-18T12:45:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Meaningful mainly because it shows you were dead wrong. Please quote from me anything I said that was wrong. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I noticed that point being made in the wiki article. Frankly, it smacks of liberals desparate to find something racist about the ad. Why? Because it’s a revolving door. The point is that people go in and are sent out immediately thereafter. So it’s hard to see any significance in the distinction between who’s going in and who’s going out. The whole point of the ad is that it’s the same people going in as coming right out again. What it shows is apparently white criminals going in and a bunch of non-whites getting released into the community. But it’s ironic that, in this case, you are concerned about people desperate to find racism in an ad. I guess it’s okay if you’re Lee Atwater and not okay if you are Brinks. Or it’s okay if you suggest that people should be afraid of African Americans but not Caucasians. > [@](#): > > But anyway, none of this changes the fact that you were dead wrong. Please quote from me anything I said that was wrong. > [@](#): > > Still laughing. And not thinking. Didn’t really expect otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/172 "2009-02-18T13:39:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was incorrect in saying Atwater apologized for the Horton ad; he apologized for another equally scummy campaign move. The “Revolving Door” ad, officially a Bush campaign product, featured mostly white actors, but was designed to resemble the Horton ad (“Weekend Passes”), which was not officially a campaign ad. Did Algore ever apologize for being the first to bring up Horton’s name and furlough, and use it against Dukakis? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/173 "2009-02-18T13:49:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Please quote from me anything I said that was wrong. “I’m sure they would have done just what they did, because they weren’t interested in representing reality, they were interested in scaring people who worry about black criminals.” > [@](#): > > What it shows is apparently white criminals going in and a bunch of non-whites getting released into the community. That’s complete nonsense. Here is a link to the ad: > **[The Living Room Candidate - Commercials - 1988 - Revolving Door](https://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1988/revolving-door)** > > An archive of presidential campaign commercials from 1952 to the present, organized by year, type, and issue, with teacher resources and playlists by experts. > [@](#): > > But it’s ironic that, in this case, you are concerned about people desperate to find racism in an ad. I guess it’s okay if you’re Lee Atwater and not okay if you are Brinks. Or it’s okay if you suggest that people should be afraid of African Americans but not Caucasians. I’m not sure what your point is, but I am analyzing these ads objectively. If it turns out that there were 3 or 4 whites similarly situated to Willie Horton, then I would change my mind conclude that the Willie Horton ad was almost certainly racist. As opposed to inventing some silly distinction to deceive myself into clinging to my previous belief. > [@](#): > > And not thinking. Lol. Keep telling yourself that you weren’t wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/174 "2009-02-18T13:50:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did Algore ever apologize for being the first to bring up Horton’s name and furlough, and use it against Dukakis? > > Regards, > Shodan Will you ever apologize for keeping this zombie untruth alive? Al Gore may have brought up the furlough program, but he never tried to personalize it. The Southern Strategy was a Republican strategy - and very much Lee Atwater’s strategy. So, please cite evidence of your claim or retract it. Or simply go on about your drive by while also continuing to drop this inaccurate turd in future punchbowls, as is your wont . ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/175 "2009-02-18T13:59:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > “I’m sure they would have done just what they did, because they weren’t interested in representing reality, they were interested in scaring people who worry about black criminals.” So where in that is there anything incorrect? I never said they didn’t make any commercial with some white actors. > [@](#): > > That’s complete nonsense. Here is a link to the ad: > > [The Living Room Candidate - Commercials - 1988 - Revolving Door](http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1988/revolving-door) Yes, and? Who is coming out the door? As I said, they did what they did. Their interest was in evoking an image of scary black men. The Southern Strategy is not a secret. > [@](#): > > Lol. Keep telling yourself that you weren’t wrong. Unfortunately, I must, until you demonstrate otherwise, and you’ve so far failed abjectly. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/176 "2009-02-18T14:16:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So where in that is there anything incorrect? I never said they didn’t make any commercial with some white actors. The question I had asked you was whether mainly black actors would be used. You implicitly answered my question in the affirmative. You were wrong. Anyway, the commercial speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/177 "2009-02-18T14:43:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The question I had asked you was whether mainly black actors would be used. You implicitly answered my question in the affirmative. You are correct. As far as can be discerned from the backs of those actors whose facial features are not shown, more of them may be Caucasian. However, those facial features which can be discerned coming out are predominantly Black or Hispanic. I was correct in saying that they did what they did, and that their intent was to scare people about black criminals. Neither of those assertions is incorrect. (As an aside, I’m sure that if they had filmed the commercial somewhere other than Utah, they would have been able to scare up more black actors. Fortunately, for them, they found enough so that the faces coming out of the prison in the commercial were primarily non-white faces. And non-white faces are much scarier than white backs-of-heads, aren’t they? (Unless of course you want to argue that in constructing this commercial, the arrangement of the actors in the line was happenstance.) > [@](#): > > Anyway, the commercial speaks for itself. Yes, yes it does. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/178 "2009-02-18T19:14:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You are correct. Thank you. > [@](#): > > As far as can be discerned from the backs of those actors whose facial features are not shown, more of them may be Caucasian. However, those facial features which can be discerned coming out are predominantly Black or Hispanic. > > I was correct in saying that they did what they did, and that their intent was to scare people about black criminals. They did not mainly use blacks. Even of the prisoners whose faces you can see, the majority is not black. Not only that, but if you went to a typical maximum security prison in Massachusetts, I have a feeling the population would have significantly more blacks than the group of people in the commercial. If the point of the commercial was to scare people with black criminals, they could have easily made all of the prisoners black. > [@](#): > > As an aside, I’m sure that if they had filmed the commercial somewhere other than Utah, they would have been able to scare up more black actors That’s the most ridiculous thing you’ve said in this entire thread. How much extra do you think it would have cost to hire 20 black extras in, say Los Angeles, and bus them out to Salt Lake City? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/179 "2009-02-18T19:17:21Z")
Why was Horton’s mug shot inserted into the “Weekend Passes” ad, **brazil84**? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592/180 "2009-02-18T19:44:29Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Will you ever apologize for keeping this zombie untruth alive? Al Gore may have brought up the furlough program, but he never tried to personalize it. The Southern Strategy was a Republican strategy - and very much Lee Atwater’s strategy. > > So, please cite evidence of your claim or retract it. Or simply go on about your drive by while also continuing to drop this inaccurate turd in future punchbowls, as is your wont . Actually, Algore did not bring up the name. As I accurately mentioned, however, he was the first to bring up the furlough program against Dukakis. > [@](#): > > Recall that the candidate who first raised the prison furlough (Willie Horton) issue against Mike Dukakis in 1988 wasn’t George Bush. It was Al Gore. [Cite.](http://www.slate.com/id/1003919/) > [@](#): > > Bill Bradley, who says his first priority as president would be to “promote racial understanding,” now implies that Al Gore is a race- baiter for having been the first to raise the Willie Horton issue in the 1988 presidential campaign. > > “Gore introduced him into the lexicon,” Bradley said in a Boston Herald interview last week. [Cite.](http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8581816.html) And other Dems do not agree with your rather over-excited denials - > [@](#): > > ‘‘Al Gore made a legitimate criticism,’’ said Dick Gephardt, himself a presidential candidate in 1988, in a statement defending Gore from Bradley’s charge. [Cite.](http://graphics.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/The_real_meaning_of_Willie_Horton+.shtml) Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-like-reality-race-crime-and-home-security-commercials/485592.md?page=10)