# Just one more gay man beaten **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897 "2001-10-22T17:17:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/61 "2001-10-24T01:08:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Intent to commit the crime, sure, but this is about who you choose as a victim. If you pick some person, you get one kind of sentence; if you choose someone else, you get less. Um, no, it’s still intent. If someone is assaulted because of a personal conflict and he happens to be gay, it’s not a hate crime, but if he is assaulted because he is gay, it is. How hard is that to understand? > [@](#): > > And it just isn’t true that ‘hate crime legislation protects everyone’. How about a straight white male who gets shot so that somebody can steal his wallet? He was targetted because he carried a wallet. I grant you it would probably be easier to stop carrying a wallet than to stop being gay/black/a woman/whatever, but why are we defining wallet-carriers as a class of persons less worthy of the protection of the law? If he was shot for being a straight white male, it would be a hate crime. > [@](#): > > A guy could get into a fight with someone else (for a “legitimate” reason) and beat him to a pulp all the while calling him a goddam faggot (simply because it’s a generic, all purpose insult as well as a pointed slur) and then get an extra couple of years added onto his sentence when it turns out that the guy was actually gay. Well then that’s what he gets for using “faggot” as an all-purpose insult. ---
**Author:** ![McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/62 "2001-10-24T01:35:27Z")
But then the law would misjudge his intentions. Not using PC speech is not a good enough reason for adding a couple of years to a GBH sentence. ---
**Author:** ![McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/63 "2001-10-24T01:37:29Z")
Also, don’t you see how this comment > [@](#): > > Um, no, it’s still intent. If someone is assaulted because of a personal conflict and he happens to be gay, it’s not a hate crime, but if he is assaulted because he is gay, it is. How hard is that to understand? Is at odds with this one > [@](#): > > Well then that’s what he gets for using “faggot” as an all-purpose insult. In the context of my hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/64 "2001-10-24T02:09:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by McMurphy \* > A guy could get into a fight with someone else (for a “legitimate” reason) and beat him to a pulp all the while calling him a goddam faggot (simply because it’s a generic, all purpose insult as well as a pointed slur) and then get an extra couple of years added onto his sentence when it turns out that the guy was actually gay. Only if the defense failed to prove that the insult did not have the intent of saying “I am beating on you because you are gay” but the intent of “I am going to insult you with a generic bad word”. Sort of like beating on someone and calling them a “retarded motherfucker”. You are not necessarily implying that they have some cranial incapacity, nor that they engage in sexual intercourse with a woman who has at least one child. I mean, Hell, I’ve been called “faggot” before. If I were gay, would that mean that the person who called me such knew I was gay? No. The purpose of Hate Crime legislation, or at least one reason, is to defend those people who are victims because of their sexual orientation (real or perceived), race (real or perceived), etc. And in that same sense I believe that if, say, Joe Smith were beaten to death because his murderer believed him gay, but he was not, **that is still a hate crime**. And finally, if his defense cannot prove that the guy in your example who killed a gay man was not calling him “faggot” out of knowledge but out of belittlement or such, that’s a tragedy, but not a reason not to have Hate Crime legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/65 "2001-10-24T02:43:11Z")
How the FUCK did this turn into yet another hate crimes law debate? The fuckers in the OP got a lousy sentence for their horrible actions, and the terrorism against the gay community continues. Want to argue semantics? Go fucking do it somewhere else. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/66 "2001-10-24T03:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > If this was happening to any other minority, racial, religious, or cultural, it would be decried throughout the media, and legislated against. It is being decried and legislated against. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > Intent to commit the crime, sure, but this is about who you choose as a victim. No, it’s not just about who you choose as a victim. It’s what your **intent** for choosing someone as a victim is. If you choose to beat up a gay man simply because he’s there, that’s not a hate crime. If you beat up a gay man **with the intentent** of punishing him for being gay, that’s a hate crime. > [@](#): > > And it just isn’t true that ‘hate crime legislation protects everyone’. How about a straight white male who gets shot so that somebody can steal his wallet? That’s like saying “It’s not true that murder laws help everyone. What if a woman is raped. How do murder laws help her?” And actually, your hypothetical shows how you’re wrong. If someone shoots a man for no particular reason, that’s murder. The most they can get is life imprisonment. If they shoot him because he had a wallet, that’s robbery **and** murder. In some states, that’s now a capital crime. So if we’re willing to punish people more over things like wallets, shouldn’t we be willing to punish them more for things like hate crimes? > [@](#): > > He was targetted because he carried a wallet. I grant you it would probably be easier to stop carrying a wallet than to stop being gay/black/a woman/whatever, but why are we defining wallet-carriers as a class of persons less worthy of the protection of the law? Classes can’t be “more worthy” than another. Only people can. Why are so many people unable to grasp this? > [@](#): > > Intent generally (AFAIK) refers to how conscious the person who commits the crime of the seriousness of his crime. You are mistaken. It refers to the purpose of the act. > [@](#): > > Gay-bashing is evil and wrong because it is wrong to beat people up _in general_, not because any one group is more worthy of living in peace than any other. No, hate crimes do not say that one group is more worthy than another. I fact, they don’t say anything about groups at all. They only talk about classes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/67 "2001-10-24T10:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > When, say, a man murders another man in a fit of jealousy,his victims are the man he kills, and that man’s family and friends. When, say, Matthew Shepherd was killed, his murderer’s victims were Shepherd, his friends and family, and millions of gays and lesbians across North America, especially those in Laramie, Wyoming, who felt suddenly a lot less safe. No one is more upset about Matt Shepherd’s murder than I. I feel rage every time I think about it. Deep, deep, seething rage. In my imperfect morality, I _hate_ the beasts who murdered him, and I _especially_ hate the animals who protested at his funeral. My question is, if I killed any of them, would it be a “hate crime”? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/68 "2001-10-24T10:45:10Z")
Of course, **Lib**! You are instilling fear amongst the disaffected “gay-killer” minority. This is, as all know, a well-recognised disenfranchised group that need protecting. pan ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/69 "2001-10-24T12:59:42Z")
**Libertarian** , isn’t there a difference between hating someone for his individual acts and hating him because of his membership to a group? I realise that there is a grey area here. For example, what if a person beats another person up and in his defence claims that it was not because the victim was gay, but because he kissed his boyfriend in public and the defendant believes that such acts are immoral in the same way that **Libertarian** believes that the act of killing Matthew Shepard was immoral… But unless we dispute **Esprix** ’s assertion that hate crime laws do not increase penalties for hate crimes, what is the problem here? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/70 "2001-10-24T13:07:51Z")
I don’t know, Penny. I just really don’t know. I’m searching for a way to keep Joe Anon’s murder as meaningful and significant as Matt Shep’s. The whole thing is too cloudy. Anybody and everybody in some way represents others. I think enforcers ought to have enough intrinsic gumption to prosecute real crime (i.e., coercion) without anyone having to slap them into their senses. The murder in the OP was heinous, but not because the victim was gay. It was heinous because the victim was human. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/71 "2001-10-24T13:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamish \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by MrVisible \* > > I am afraid every time I’m out in public, and my boyfriend looks at me lovingly. I’m scared to hold his hand. I’m scared for his life, and mine, every time we’re out on a date, and having fun; the spectre of fear is over me, the threat of immediate, senseless violence. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be able to love, without fear._\* > > I’ve never had a boyfriend who was confident enough to kiss or hug in public. It’s funny that we actually have to think about these things. No one else in North America has to. I can’t imagine that this is completely true. I bet there are still plenty of places in North America where an interracical couple has to worry about this. Particularly black men dating white women in some rural cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/72 "2001-10-24T13:48:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*I can’t imagine that this is completely true. I bet there are still plenty of places in North America where an interracical couple has to worry about this. Particularly black men dating white women in some rural cultures. \*\* Phil is correct. My sister-in-law runs a public school in rural Georgia, and has had to deal with harassment of interracial couples among the students. Them good ol’ boys don’t like “zebras” too much. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/73 "2001-10-24T16:02:25Z")
Libertarian > [@](#): > > No one is more upset about Matt Shepherd’s murder than I. I bet I can name two, both of whom have the last name “Shepard.” Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/74 "2001-10-24T16:44:13Z")
True, **Otto** , but there’s no need to get stroppy; I think **Libertarian** has made an valid point. In response to him, I would say that while the killing of Matthew Shepard may not be more significant to his family and friends than the killing of Joe Anon is to _his_ family and friends, it is more significant to the community to which Matthew Shepard belonged, if he was killed for the sole reason that he belonged to that community. (I include anyone who could be mistaken as a member of that community, of course.) I feel as sorry for someone who is killed for his wallet, but the two events have, at the very least, **different** significance. The one event implies that our society has a problem with poverty, the other that our society has a problem with intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/75 "2001-10-24T17:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I bet I can name two, both of whom have the last name “Shepard.” Jackass. I wish I had the composure of his precious parents, whose stance on hate crimes is the main reason my mind isn’t made up. I still choke up when I re-read what Dennis Shepard said to the court in November, 1999. * * * "Matt officially died at 12:53 a.m. on Monday, October 12, 1998, in a hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado. He actually died on the outskirts of Laramie tied to a fence that Wednesday before, when you beat him. You, Mr. McKinney, with your friend Mr. Henderson, killed my son. By the end of the beating, his body was just trying to survive. You left him out there by himself, but he wasn’t alone. There were his lifelong friends with him—friends that he had grown up with. You’re probably wondering who these friends were. First, he had the beautiful night sky with the same stars and moon that we used to look at through a telescope. Then, he had the daylight and the sun to shine on him one more time—one more cool, wonderful autumn day in Wyoming. His last day alive in Wyoming. His last day alive in the state that he always proudly called home. And through it all he was breathing in for the last time the smell of Wyoming sagebrush and the scent of pine trees from the snowy range. He heard the wind—the ever-present Wyoming wind—for the last time. He had one more friend with him. One he grew to know through his time in Sunday school and as an acolyte at St. Mark’s in Casper as well as through his visits to St. Matthew’s in Laramie. He had God. I feel better knowing he wasn’t alone." * * * Beautiful. What a beautiful family. [Here](http://www.wiredstrategies.com/mrshep.htm) is the full text of Mr. Shepard’s remarks. Read it. You’ll find out why they did not seek the death penalty for McKinney, and why Matt was one of the most beautiful people who ever lived. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/76 "2001-10-24T17:27:12Z")
Okay, so it’s a debate about hate crime legislation. Actually, **Esprix** , I don’t mind that it has become that; it’s an issue I haven’t thought about enough. And, frankly, I much prefer freewheeling Pit discussions to the form that debates take over in GD; seems more human in here. I’d like to clarify one point: hate crime legislation is already in place, and has been since 1969. According to [religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat1.htm) > [@](#): > > Traditional hate crime legislation protects persons because of “his race, color, religion or national origin,” as in the case of the 1969 federal hate crimes law. (18 U.S.C. Section 245). Most state laws now include additional protected groups. Some laws are restrictive and only protect a member of a group if she/he is involved in specific activities. For example, the current (1969) federal law only applies if the crime happens when a person is attending a public school or is at work or participating in one of four other “federally protected activities.” The question is, should these laws be expanded to cover homosexuals, and should they apply when people aren’t in school, work, or other federally proteted activities. The link I posted above is a great resource for an overview of this debate, actually. I’d like to thank you all for discussing this topic in this context; like I said earlier, it’s something I hadn’t put much thought into, but I can see now that I’ll have to do some more research. Oh, and **pldennison** , in reference to this: > [@](#): > > I bet there are still plenty of places in North America where an interracical couple has to worry about this. My lover is Native American. I’m caucasian. Until you posted, I hadn’t even thought about the possibility that being a mixed homosexual couple might cause additional difficulties. Actually, in a sad sorta way, it’s kind of funny. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/77 "2001-10-24T17:32:08Z")
Oh, God. I just noticed that I misspelled his name this morning. Fuck me. Damn. Just plain damn. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/78 "2001-10-24T19:40:37Z")
BTW, **Lib** , part of the theory behind the hate crimes legislation is that people can’t help being gay/straight/black/white/navy/female/male/butch/femme/whatever or being perceived as such. OTOH, Mr. Phelps _can_ choose not to be a hatemongering asshole. In theory, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/79 "2001-10-25T05:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > True, Otto, but there’s no need to get stroppy; I think Libertarian has made an valid point. His point gets lost when it’s coupled with an assertion that he is more outraged by Matthew Shepard’s death than Matthew Shepard’s parents are. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897/80 "2001-10-25T06:10:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > No one is more upset about Matt Shepherd’s murder than I. **Libertarian** , with all due respect, I think you may be incorrect on that one. I do not mean to say that you don’t seethe with barely-bridled anger at the inhuman objects able to commit so vicious and brutal a crime, just that perhaps there are people closer to him who are more upset. There is nothing at all wrong with that. For example, I would wager that the abuse suffered by my father and his siblings is something that upsets and enrages me more than you. And **that’s fine**. I’d be rather bothered if that weren’t the case. I know we all commend you for feeling, but there is a line across which one shouldn’t go in saying how deeply one feels, and assuming that you are the mark by which “being upset about Matt Shepard’s murder” is measured . . . perhaps disturbs that line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-one-more-gay-man-beaten/88897.md?page=5)