# Just read Starship Troopers for the first time. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075 "2010-11-18T07:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/21 "2010-11-18T18:53:15Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > He was also noteworthy for, right from the beginning of his career (when he was still quite poor) refusing to tolerate racism or bigotry in his books. There’s a famous exchange with one of his editors Not knowing anything about this anecdote, I nonetheless detect John W. Campbell. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/22 "2010-11-18T19:01:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > For a good counterpiece from someone who actually saw combat action, most people praise “The Forever War” ([The Forever War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War) ) . I say most people cause I still haven’t read it. Seconding “The Forever War.” Great book. **TS** , you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/23 "2010-11-18T19:10:32Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > And of course, Johnny Rico is (most likely) Hispanic. Filipino actually. At least he said they speak Tagalog at home. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/24 "2010-11-18T19:19:39Z")
Don’t stop now! Read the whole Heinlein catalog, which is considerable. And you will see the influence his works have had on many works of modern fiction and movies. Not just Science Fiction either. And every strong woman in his stories and books, is his wife Virginia. And every hero is his idealized vision of himself. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/25 "2010-11-18T19:36:03Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Are there other sci-fi books that are considered “classics” in a general literary sense like this book is? _Starship Troopers_ won the Hugo Award for best novel, one of the two major awards for science fiction novels (the other, the Nebula, wasn’t around back then). A look through the [list of Hugo winners](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel) reveals other classic science fiction books (as well as some that have fallen into relative obscurity, perhaps justly). If you’re looking to get into more SF, you might want to look at this old thread: [New to SF literature: where do I start](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460342). Or, you might also be interested in this old thread and the list of “SF Masterworks” it discusses and links to: [Is this a decent list of SF reads?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361995) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/26 "2010-11-18T19:43:23Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Don’t stop now! Read the whole Heinlein catalog, which is considerable. Do not read the whole Heinlein catalog. Best advice is to continue reading his books in chronological order, then stop whenever you hit the one that makes you go :rolleyes: or :smack:. Subsequent ones will not improve matters any. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/27 "2010-11-18T20:01:42Z")
I was a big Heinlein fan when I was young, but I never thought much of _Starship Troopers_. To me, it belongs down there near the bottom with other lesser Heinlein–_Beyond this Horizon_. _Farnham’s Freehold_, _Rocket Ship Galileo_ and _I Will Fear No Evil_. I think \*Time Enough for Love \*is his masterpiece. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/28 "2010-11-18T20:34:33Z")
First, let me add another vote for **The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress**. I place it slightly higher than Troopers, but both are truly excellent books. Second, while **The Forever War** is a great read, if you want to see Heinlein’s style and content aped and aped well, try David Gerrold’s **A Matter For Men**. The series grows more didactic (and unfocused) with the third book, but the first book is freaking awesome (and was done with RAH’s full knowledge & blessing). Third, hi Opal!\* \*I can never resist doing that! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/29 "2010-11-18T20:46:16Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Do not read the whole Heinlein catalog. Best advice is to continue reading his books in chronological order, then stop whenever you hit the one that makes you go :rolleyes: or :smack:. Subsequent ones will not improve matters any. That book would be **I Will Fear No Evil.** I’d recommend continuing after that, but not until one waits for the greatness to sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/30 "2010-11-18T20:54:17Z")
Quoth **Dallas Jones** : > [@](#): > > And every strong woman in his stories and books, is his wife Virginia. And every hero is his idealized vision of himself. I’ve seen that claim many times, but if it’s true, then Heinlein had a lot of very different visions of himself. Yes, he does have a tendency to re-use the same characters with different names, but even accounting for that, he still has at least a dozen different characters. Nor are they entirely divided along gender lines, either: The character most like Lazarus Long, for instance, is Grandmother Hazel (and vice-versa). If you’re going to try to claim that Hazel was modeled after Virginia, then Lazarus was, too. Quoth **Tom Scud** : > [@](#): > > Do not read the whole Heinlein catalog. Best advice is to continue reading his books in chronological order, then stop whenever you hit the one that makes you go or . Subsequent ones will not improve matters any. Not bad advice in its broad outlines, but needs a bit more refinement. When you get to _Stranger in a Strange Land_, if you don’t like it, then just skip to the next one after that. Suffice to say that opinion is widely divided on that one: Everyone I’ve met who has read it has either loved it or hated it. And _Friday_ is pretty good (not as good as his earlier work, but still better than most other authors), but I’m pretty sure it comes after one or two of the senile books. Also, I don’t know much about _For us, the Living_, his first novel but heavily edited and published after his death, but it’s probably best to save that one for after you have a few of his classics already under your belt. My usual advice to a new Heinlein reader is to start with the juveniles (except for _Time for the Stars_, but you probably won’t hate that one as much as I did anyway) and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. The juvies (in which category I include _Citizen of the Galaxy_, _Podkayne of Mars_, and _Orphans of the Sky_) are perfectly good books for adults or youth, and are set aside entirely because they have less sex and politics than the “adult” books. But one of the most common ways Heinlein goes bad is by putting in too much sex and politics, so that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/31 "2010-11-18T21:09:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My usual advice to a new Heinlein reader is to start with the juveniles (except for _Time for the Stars_, but you probably won’t hate that one as much as I did anyway) and _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. The juvies (in which category I include _Citizen of the Galaxy_, _Podkayne of Mars_, and _Orphans of the Sky_) are perfectly good books for adults or youth, and are set aside entirely because they have less sex and politics than the “adult” books. But one of the most common ways Heinlein goes bad is by putting in too much sex and politics, so that’s OK. Also, short stories. _The Past Through Tomorrow_ collects most of them, and IMO it’s a better volume overall than any of his novels with the possible exception of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. There are a few other volumes that collect his non-Future History stories, as well, which are worth seeking out. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/32 "2010-11-18T21:34:34Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > And every strong woman in his stories and books, is his wife Virginia. And every hero is his idealized vision of himself. Total bullshit. Lazarus isn’t Johnnie, who isn’t Mr. Kiku, who isn’t Cas or Pol, who aren’t Kettlebelly Baldwin, who isn’t Col. DuBois, who isn’t Waldo… the list goes on and on. Wyoh isn’t Hazel, who isn’t Carmen, who isn’t Friday, who isn’t Margrethe, who isn’t Gail, who isn’t… He also has quite a few protagonists who have _serious_ flaws. Hardly an “idealized vision.” You can’t go wrong with **TMiaHM** , the juveniles, **Revolt In 2100** and **The Past Through Tomorrow.** ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/33 "2010-11-18T21:38:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s a great book. I’ll have to reread it myself. > > Don’t watch the movie. It’s basically Starship Troopers: Strawman Edition, with everything that was good about the book stripped out in order to make a bullshit arguement. I am the other way round. I thought the book was absolute tirgid drivel whereas the film was a widely misunderstood masterpiece. Maybe it depends on which you came across first? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/34 "2010-11-18T21:38:39Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Filipino actually. At least he said they speak Tagalog at home. I stand corrected, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/35 "2010-11-18T21:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyway, you’re right that the book started many themes that have since become almost cliched. If you want to see the closest approximation to Heinlein’s Mobile Infantry though, don’t look to the movie ‘adaptation’ - watch the drop scene in Aliens. The Space Marines that land on the alien planet even lift some dialog straight from Starship Troopers. And Ripley even uses a form of powered armor to fight the Alien. The Starship Troopers influences are visible all through that movie. Actually, despite being a rather low-budge shitty movie, _Starship Troopers 3_ (yes, 3) made use of full on powered armor and was true to the style of planetary insertion that was used in the book (individual pods shot down to the surface from an orbiting drop ship). I don’t deny that _Aliens_ is influenced by ST at all, just that ST3 got the armour and the whole drop scene down better than Aliens (even if it the effects were welfare in comparison to _Aliens_). Aliens was heavily influential on Starcraft though…right down to lifting sound bits from the movie. Starcraft SCV’s are pretty much exactly what Ripley used to kill the Alien at the end of _Aliens_ _We’re in the pipe, five by five_ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/36 "2010-11-18T21:42:48Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Wyoh isn’t Hazel Why not? (It’s a credit to the strength of Heinlein’s writing that even _knowing_ she’s a fictional character, and her author is long dead, I’m still a bit nervous about cracking that one.) Regarding the juveniles - I don’t think it tops anybody’s list, but I’ll always think fondly of “Have Spacesuit, Will Travel” . Introduced me to Heinlein and science fiction both. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/37 "2010-11-18T21:44:48Z")
Well, in my opinion, the best thing you can say about Starship Troopers is that, unlike Heinlein’s later works, the main characters weren’t clearly stand-ins for the author’s self-aggrandizing fantasies. But the characters were all about as three-dimensional as the computer screen I’m using (hint: it’s not a cathode-ray tube). And then again, now that I think about it, the situations were all pretty much self-aggrandizing fantasies (Ooh, I start by rampaging through a city with superhuman powers, nearly bringing it to its knees with just a couple of hand-held weapons. Then I show how tough I am by going through basic training and then officer training. Yes, there’s just enough off-screen tragedy to allow me to show how I can bravely jut out my jaw and keep going, but I’m never really hurt, physically or emotionally, even in a frikken war. And at the end I get to boss my dad around!). I mean, I have nothing against unrealistic escapist fantasies, but pretending they’re an argument for how to organize society seems like kind of a stretch to me. Of course the politics were maybe even less developed that the characters, but in the end I think they’d work well with the cardboard cut-outs who inhabit the book’s universe, but not so well with real humans. If you could convince me that the sophomoric smug know-it-all-better-than-you tone was an intentional artistic choice by the author, I might give it some credit, but since nobody seems to ever say that the message of the book is “If you let the military run society, of course you’ll end up in wars with the first aliens you meet”, I’ll stick to my estimation. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/38 "2010-11-18T21:53:16Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I am the other way round. I thought the book was absolute tirgid drivel whereas the film was a widely misunderstood masterpiece. Maybe it depends on which you came across first? No, I saw the movie before I read the book and I still think it’s garbage. It all comes down to this: In the book, characters act in ways that work, which is how real people generally act in real life. In the movie, characters act in ways that don’t work, because Verhoeven wants them to look bad. Any point it tries to make is automatically invalid, because it relies on the artificial construct of Verhoeven’s idiot plot. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/39 "2010-11-18T21:57:31Z")
Any examples? I ask as I really didn’t see any of that. As for the ‘idiot’ plot, at least it has one. I struggle to even remember what happened in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/40 "2010-11-18T22:17:46Z")
Fantastic book, in every way possible. I don’t read science fiction books for their philosophical insight. So, when Heinlein starts in with all the fascism, I’m able to say, “wow sci-fi fascism, awesome!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075.md?page=3)