# Just read Starship Troopers for the first time. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075 "2010-11-18T07:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/41 "2010-11-18T22:20:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Any examples? I ask as I really didn’t see any of that. During boot camp, one of the recruits asks why they’re learning knife fighting when they’ve got things like nuclear weapons. In the book, the officer makes an argument against limiting your available responses to asking “don’t do that again” and committing genocide, and thus convinces the recruit that the training and the strategy behind it are sound. In the movie, the officer pins his hand to a wall with a thrown knife and spouts a stupid one liner about not being able to push the button when your hand’s pinned to a wall with a thrown knife. In effect, the officer has limited himself to doing nothing or excessive and violent retribution, the exact thing the scene from the book was arguing _against_. And of course there’s the Mobile Infantry themselves. In the book they operate without air support, tanks, or support weapons because their mobility, intelligence, firepower and armour means they can succeed without them. In the movie they operate without air support, tanks or support weapons because Verhoeven needs them to fail. The Napoleonic era had a better grasp of strategy than these clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/42 "2010-11-18T22:26:16Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I need to go back and watch the movie now. I know it’s not anything like it but I don’t remember much of it. Did the marines even wear power armor in the movie? I don’t remember it. No, you don’t. The plot and characters are only loosely based on Heinlein’s story. The director, Verhoeven, misinterpreted Heinlein’s message, disagreed with that misinterpretation, so made the movie to subvert the misinterpretation. There’s no power armor - Verhoeven claims he only had CGI budget for either bugs or armor, but not both, and the bugs were more crucial. What he failed to account for was the significance in capability that the powered armor provided, so by removing it but leaving the tactics the same, he made the military idiots. Oh, wait, maybe he did realize that. He twists the government, and purposely does things to make the viewer uncomfortable. I remember watching it in the theater and wondering about the way the first slaughter by bugs scene was played for comedic effect. The way the Psi corps officers uniforms were practically NAZI SS uniforms, and friggin Doogie Howser was the [del]NAZI[/del] officer. All those Public Service Annoucements that make you just a little uncomfortable. > [@](#): > > Have you read this book? What did you think? Are there other sci-fi books that are considered “classics” in a general literary sense like this book is? Are any of his other books as good as this one? I have read this book. I enjoyed it. Surprisingly it’s a lot more talky-talky than action. Still, it is good, and thought provoking. Other works of his to read: Have Spacesuit, Will Travel Citizen of the Galaxy Podkayne of Mars The Past Through Tomorrow is his Future History series, collection of short stories. It is mostly about technology and how it affects humanity. Stranger In A Strange Land - lengthy observation of humanity through the prism of religion. Lots of sex. Kind of odd. Spawned cults. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress Time Enough For Love If you get through those, then you may wish to read The Number of the Beast. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Starship Troopers deserves its classic status, and did not deserve to be parodied/trashed by Paul Verhoeven. The movie would be more enjoyable if you never read the book, but as an interpretation of Heinlein it’s a disgrace. Hosannas on high, amen! > [@](#): > > I think the claim of ‘fascism’ some have laid against the book stems from the fact that it glorifies the soldier. Heinlein said so in many interviews - he wasn’t glorifying militarism of society or warfare - he was glorifying the poor bloody infantry - the people who put themselves between their homes and loved ones and war’s desolation. From what I gather, much of the misunderstanding comes from citizenship only applying to veterans. The implication that they take is that it is a military government. There’s a reason Verhoeven dressed up the psi corps guy like a NAZI. I recall an interview prior to the movie coming out where the main actor was talking up how interesting it was to do a movie about a fascist society, and I was all confused, because that’s not the book I remember. > [@](#): > > The actual society in the book is more libertarian than anything. It’s clear that, at least until an existential war fell on them, the government was actually rather small and had little influence over people’s lives, and the military was held somewhat in contempt by the masses. You had to do ‘service’ to be a citizen (which wasn’t necessarily military service), but if you weren’t a citizen you could still live your life just fine with no restrictions other than that you couldn’t vote. And obviously it was also a democracy. So I never understood the claim that the book was fascist. Also note that no active duty military were citizens - you had to be retired to vote and participate in the government. Yes, I think Heinlein intended it to be Libertarian - which was his strong inclination. I did observe certain points that were pretty harsh, though. For instance, the broad use of corporal punishment as a regular thing. Public lashings were commonplace punishments for criminals. Heinlein discusses this point in the book, about how evolutionarily we are conditioned to respond to pain to teach us lessons, so that means that as a society we should use pain to enforce the lessons we want for society. Except is doesn’t mean ought. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Anybody notice how closely the Troopers’ training parallels that of the US Navy SEALS? > Heinlein was an Annapolis graduate. And his book was published right around the time the SEALS were being formed, or just a year or two earlier. > > I wonder who he roomed with, at the Academy, so to speak. How closely does it mimic SEAL training, as opposed to Marine infantry training? > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And contrary to what seems to be the majority here, it’s [Starship Troopers] one hell of a movie. > Most die hard fans of Heinlein, or at least those that really dislike the movie, tend to share a lot of his views. For a good counterpiece from someone who actually saw combat action, most people praise “The Forever War” ([The Forever War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War) ) . I say most people cause I still havent read it. When I first saw the movie, I enjoyed it, and was happy a Heinlein movie was mainstream. But I recall elements of it feeling wrong - the publicity reels, the scene with the bugs, the way Sergeant Zim was carried out. There’s the scene where Rico first shows up for training, and Zim offers up any of the recruits to fight him - he has to quickly establish he is the boss so they know better for later and won’t try things then. So he ends up fighting this one guy, and then after throwing and pinning him, _deliberately_ breaking his arm. It was malicious and deliberate. But that scene didn’t play out that way in the book. In the book, yes, he does have a few tussles with recruits to set the boundaries, and yes he does have a fight with that character, and yes that character gets his arm broken. But in the book, the arm break was accidental, the result of two accomplished martial artists going full speed. It was an incidental break because of the exchange, not an after the fact action taken on an opponent already on the ground. That annoyed me, because that wasn’t Heinlein’s story. And of course the lack of powered armor. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > One of the possible options in the book was “labor battalions terraforming Venus”. I see no reason for that to be set up as a military organization, especially if you can quit at any time. Sounds more like working on an offshore oil rig. > > ETA: > > Quote from Major Reid, the OCS H&MP instructor: > > “And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subject to the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and endangered - yet their votes count.” Except everyone who completes service is called a “veteran”. That’s a confusing word to use for a non-military. Also note that “non-combat auxiliary” does not necessarily mean “non-military”. For instance, in our military, doctors are non-combat auxiliaries, but carry military ranks. And while technically you can quit any time, if you don’t complete your 2 year hitch (IIRC) then you don’t qualify for citizenship. And note that the let the combat line quit any time during training. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > He was also noteworthy for, right from the beginning of his career (when he was still quite poor) refusing to tolerate racism or bigotry in his books. There’s a famous exchange with one of his editors in which he makes it quite clear that, yes, one his his characters _is_ Jewish (or possibly black, I can’t recall), and he will _not_ be changing that, and if the editor doesn’t like that, then he is welcome to work with another author. And of course, Johnny Rico is (most likely) Hispanic. Heinlein spoke openly of his belief that young adult fiction, in particular, should work to combat prejudice. Which is why Sixth Column stood out. That’s the one where Asians take over and subvert America, and so they create a fake religion that operates under religious freedom doctrines but is really a freedom-fighting network that develops and deploys a device that can be tuned to a racial type and only affect them. It wasn’t until later that I learned Heinlein was directed to take over that story from someone else, and he tried to insert things where he could - but it was hopeless, because the story itself was racist in overtones. > **[Sixth Column](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Column)** > > Sixth Column, also known under the title The Day After Tomorrow, is a science fiction novel by American writer Robert A. Heinlein, based on a then-unpublished story by editor John W. Campbell, and set in a United States that has been conquered by the PanAsians, who are asserted to be neither Japanese nor Chinese. Originally published as a serial in Astounding Science Fiction (January, February, and March 1941, using the pen name Anson MacDonald) it was published in hardcover in 1949. It is most... Don’t get me wrong, there’s an interesting idea portrayed about using the religion as a cover for the resistance, and Heinlein worked hard to give sypathetic Asian characters and work a loophole. Still, the premise is “the good Americans create a device that they can tune to kill only Asians.” > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Second, while **The Forever War** is a great read, if you want to see Heinlein’s style and content aped and aped well, try David Gerrold’s **A Matter For Men**. The series grows more didactic (and unfocused) with the third book, but the first book is freaking awesome (and was done with RAH’s full knowledge & blessing). I really enjoyed that series. My hesitations for recommending it primarily hinge on the fact that the series is incomplete and stuck - because of some dispute between Gerrold and the publisher, he will NEVER finish the series. So there will not be a conclusion. :mad: And second, Gerrold decided to tackle bigotry over homosexuality by making that an issue for the main character, which can be somewhat off-putting for mainstream Americans. The main character has a couple of homosexual encounters before going on to get a girlfriend. I will, however, recommend Gerrold as having a number of books very similar in feel to Heinlein. Like _When Harley Was One_ about a sentient computer, harkening to _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. And _The Man Who Folded Himself_, tying in to a couple of Heinlein’s solopsist works. And of course, _The Trouble With Tribbles_ cribbed heavily from _The Rolling Stones_. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/43 "2010-11-18T22:39:35Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Any examples? I ask as I really didn’t see any of that. As for the ‘idiot’ plot, at least it has one. I struggle to even remember what happened in the book. The point of the book wasn’t the plot. A young man goes through a high school citizenship class to learn the history, aims, and structure of his government. He then opts for military service to earn the right to become a citizen, and gets an education in what military service really is. He goes through basic training, where he learns to be a responsible adult and a member of a team. Then he goes into combat service with his team to serve his home planet against an alien attacking force. Eventually, he shows leadership skills and is sent to Officer training, where he learns the difference between being responsible for yourself and responsible for others. He learns the importance of leadership and good decision-making at the top for the bottom to be effective. He learns that if the officers fuck up, the grunts pay the price, and that a good officer needs to be aware of that fact. The end of the book shows him taking responsibility for others, becoming the leader. He’s grown from a selfish young man to a responsible citizen - except for the part that he hasn’t retired yet so isn’t technically a citizen yet. Oh, and there’s powered armor. Did I mention the powered armor yet? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/44 "2010-11-18T22:47:57Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And second, Gerrold decided to tackle bigotry over homosexuality by making that an issue for the main character, which can be somewhat off-putting for mainstream Americans. The main character has a couple of homosexual encounters before going on to get a girlfriend. In fairness to Gerrold, he really, really wanted to tackle that issue in science fiction for some time, dating back to his _Star Trek_ days. I’m not sure he actually handled it all that deftly, but you can’t blame the fellow for _finally_ getting the opportunity and running with it. And overall, the series is really quite excellent. The War Against the Chtorr is a neat premise, and Gerrold clearly thought _hard_ about how to make his Chtorriforming ecology work. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/45 "2010-11-18T22:47:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Also, short stories. _The Past Through Tomorrow_ collects most of them, and IMO it’s a better volume overall than any of his novels with the possible exception of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Concur. Some of his juveniles, while a bit preachy, are also very good. His post _Stranger In A Strange Land_ output, however, is highly variable, mostly veering toward bad. > [@amanset](#): > > I am the other way round. I thought the book was absolute tirgid drivel whereas the film was a widely misunderstood masterpiece. Maybe it depends on which you came across first? Yes, yes, and _Showgirls_ is a misunderstood parody of fame, and poor Edward Neumeier just doesn’t get the respect he deserves as a writer of dystopic satire, et cetera. Or the film is actually just as badly plotted, acted, directed, and produced as it appears to be. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/46 "2010-11-18T22:50:42Z")
Then on top of everything else Verhoeven lied to me! Me personally, and a number of others. His people were at Loscon, trying to drum up buzz for the movie, and they flat-out said they would have powered armor. They got a bunch of us to be extras in the crowd at the ball game, so we would talk up the movie and feel a part of it. Then he raped the book, pissed on the fans and laughed at the suckers. I hope the fucker fries for eternity for what he has done. Me, bitter? What makes you say that? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/47 "2010-11-18T23:12:41Z")
When I first found out that they were making a movie, I was very excited, since Heinlein’s book would make a great Hollywood blockbuster: You’ve got badasses in powered armor unleashing all sorts of special effects on aliens. Of course you’d have to cut most of the politics, but that’s OK, there isn’t room for everything in a movie. So what do they do? Exaggerate the politics to the point of absurdity, and cut out the powered armor. It’s like they were listening to me, and made a deliberate decision to say “screw you”. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/48 "2010-11-18T23:21:45Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Then on top of everything else Verhoeven lied to me! Me personally, and a number of others. His people were at Loscon, trying to drum up buzz for the movie, and they flat-out said they would have powered armor. They got a bunch of us to be extras in the crowd at the ball game, so we would talk up the movie and feel a part of it. Then he raped the book, pissed on the fans and laughed at the suckers. I hope the fucker fries for eternity for what he has done. > > Me, bitter? What makes you say that? > [@Chronos](#): > > When I first found out that they were making a movie, I was very excited, since Heinlein’s book would make a great Hollywood blockbuster: You’ve got badasses in powered armor unleashing all sorts of special effects on aliens. Of course you’d have to cut most of the politics, but that’s OK, there isn’t room for everything in a movie. > > So what do they do? Exaggerate the politics to the point of absurdity, and cut out the powered armor. It’s like they were listening to me, and made a deliberate decision to say “screw you”. And to rub some salt and glass shards into that bleeding wound: Heinlein’s military as written were at least competent; the movie’s military, on the other hand…well, suffice to say I’ve seen amateur and pre-pubescent paint-ballers display a better grasp of infantry tactics than Verhoeven’s waste of celluloid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/49 "2010-11-19T00:00:37Z")
The Axion in the movie that will forever stick with me about the movie is: So far in the future, everybody walks. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/50 "2010-11-19T00:18:42Z")
Regarding Heinlein’s later output: Around 1970 he started having various physical and mental problems that affected the quality of his work. For some time he suffered from restricted blood flow to the brain due to an undiagnosed arterial blockage. During this period his thinking wasn’t sharp, and he eventually wound up sleeping 16 hours a day due to medication for his condition. A lot of people thought he had become senile and would never write a good book again. The main book from this period is “I Will Fear No Evil”, which is still the only Heinlein book I haven’t managed to finish. In 1977 he had a bypass operation that restored the blood flow in his brain, and he slowly regained his health and his mental faculties. The books that he wrote after the surgery were markedly better, and include “The Number of the Beast”, “Job: A Comedy of Justice”, “Friday”, “The Cat Who Walks Through Walls”, and “To Sail Beyond The Sunset”. The best of these books are, in my opinion, Friday and Job. However, even though his writing ability returned to normal, they are still books written by an old man who had grown so popular that he could override the decisions of editors, and the books are generally too long, too focused on revisiting his past characters, and a little unfocused (again, Friday and Job excepted). If you want to sample Heinlein, I would recommend trying the following books, in order, mixing in some ‘Juveniles’ with his more 'adult books: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Starman Jones Double Star Citizen of the Galaxy The Star Beast Stranger in a Strange Land Farmer in the Sky The Puppet Masters Job: A Comedy of Justice Time Enough for Love I mixed the juveniles in with the other works, as kind of a sorbet. Heinlein’s juveniles are my favorite books. They’re more tightly plotted and have more vivid characters than his other books. The only thing that makes them ‘juvenile’ is that they don’t contain sex or hard language, so they could be marketed to teenagers. But Heinlein never talked down to his audience. Even his juveniles aimed at younger readers, like “Have Space Suit - Will Travel” have hard science and plenty of plot and character development. They’re great books. In fact, you couldn’t go wrong by just reading all the juveniles first, then exploring his more adult material later. I’d hate for a reader to be put off by a book like “Time Enough For Love” and as a result never get around to reading true classics like Have _Space Suit - Will travel_ or_The Rolling Stones_ or _Tunnel in the Sky_ Heinlein won seven Hugo awards - four original Hugos, and three 'Retro Hugos" given out for works written before the Hugo awards were published. They’re all must reading. The four original Hugos: 1956 Novel: Double Star 1960 Novel: Starship Troopers 1962 Novel: Stranger in a Strange Land 1967 Novel: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress The Three Retro Hugos: Best Novel–Farmer in the Sky Best Novella–“The Man Who Sold the Moon” Best Dramatic Presentation–“Destination Moon” movie with script by Robert A. Heinlein ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/51 "2010-11-19T00:24:24Z")
[http://www.trooperpx.com/AFS/AFS28.html](http://www.trooperpx.com/AFS/AFS28.html) My “PoweredSuit” action figure is still one of my little treasures. It really looks perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/52 "2010-11-19T00:49:44Z")
WTF alla y’all mentioning his juvies got no love for two of my faves: **Space Cadet** and **Red Planet**? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/53 "2010-11-19T00:58:44Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The point of the book wasn’t the plot. > > A young man goes through a high school citizenship class to learn the history, aims, and structure of his government. He then opts for military service to earn the right to become a citizen, and gets an education in what military service really is. He goes through basic training, where he learns to be a responsible adult and a member of a team. Then he goes into combat service with his team to serve his home planet against an alien attacking force. > > Eventually, he shows leadership skills and is sent to Officer training, where he learns the difference between being responsible for yourself and responsible for others. He learns the importance of leadership and good decision-making at the top for the bottom to be effective. He learns that if the officers fuck up, the grunts pay the price, and that a good officer needs to be aware of that fact. > > The end of the book shows him taking responsibility for others, becoming the leader. He’s grown from a selfish young man to a responsible citizen - except for the part that he hasn’t retired yet so isn’t technically a citizen yet. In other words, it’s a coming-of-age story. With powered armor. If Verhoeven thought the bugs were “more crucial” than the armor, then he’s a moron. Who clearly didn’t read the book. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/54 "2010-11-19T01:06:26Z")
It’s **Starman Jones** that is the most dated, IMO. I’d rank them: **The Rolling Stones Tunnel In The Sky Citizen of the Galaxy Podkayne of Mars Time For the Stars Between Planets The Sky Beast Farmer In the Sky Have Spacesuit - Will Travel Starman Jones Red Planet Space Cadet** This is a great way to start arguments at a Sci-Fi gathering, BTW. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/55 "2010-11-19T01:32:44Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > In other words, it’s a coming-of-age story. With powered armor. > > If Verhoeven thought the bugs were “more crucial” than the armor, then he’s a moron. Who clearly didn’t read the book. Verhoeven is proud of not having read the book, “because it would interfere with his ‘artistic vision’.” :rolleyes: ========== In a letter included in _Grumbles from the Grave_, Heinlein says (paraphrased because I don’t have the book handy, “It is a book about why people fight. Because it is manifestly obvious that people _do_ fight, that makes exploring why they fight a legitimate topic for a writer.” Either Heinlein or Spider Robinson commented (also paraphrased), “It doesn’t glorify militarism. It glorifies ‘the poor bloody infantryman’ … the guy who puts his life on the line that others may stay free.” Finally, the woman captain of the Rodger Young, “hot pilot Yvette Deladrier,” owes her surname to Capt. Clovis Deladrier, fencing instructor at the USNA when Heinlein was a midshipman. Heinlein’s interest and skill in fencing show up in some unusual places, e.g., _Glory Road_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/56 "2010-11-19T01:43:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Despite Heinlein’s later attempts at retconning, it was quite clear from the book itself that the service _was_ necessarily military. Rico didn’t even bother listing any service preferences past “mobile infantry”, because anything past that would be things like testing space-suits on Titan, or other forms of creative suicide. Don’t you think that he would have had, say, “mailman” on his list, if it’d been available? From the book itself: > [@](#): > > ``` > She left, with thanks to him and a see-you-later to us; he turned his attention to us, sized us up with a total absence of the pleasure he had shown in little Carmen. "So?" he said. "For what? Labor battalions?" > "Oh, no!" I said. "I'm going to be a pilot." > He stared at me and simply turned his eyes away. "You?" > "I'm interested in the Research and Development Corps," Carl said > > ``` > > soberly, “especially electronics. I understand the chances are pretty good.” Perhaps this is inconclusive, but I don’t think “labor battalions” sounds military. > [@](#): > > Take that young lady who was here – wants to be a pilot. I hope she makes it; we always need good pilots, not enough of `em. Maybe she will. > But if she misses, she may wind up in Antarctica, her pretty eyes red from never seeing anything but artificial light and her knuckles callused from hard, dirty work." Again, doesn’t sound like a military posting, but we still don’t know for sure. > [@](#): > > I asked one of the doctors what percentage of the victims flunked the > physical. He looked startled. “Why, we never fail anyone. The law doesn’t > permit us to.” > “Huh? I mean, Excuse me, Doctor? Then what’s the point of this > goose-flesh parade?” > “Why, the purpose is,” he answered, hauling off and hitting me in the > knee with a hammer (I kicked him, but not hard), “to find out what duties > you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a wheel chair > and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they > would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a > caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the > psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath.” That’s pretty blatant evidence that military service is not the only option. > [@](#): > > Major Reid was gentle with him. “Sorry. An appealing theory not backed > up by facts. You and I are not permitted to vote as long as we remain in the > Service, nor is it verifiable that military discipline makes a man > self-disciplined once he is out; the crime rate of veterans is much like > that of civilians. And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans > come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subjected to > the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, > overworked, and endangered – yet their votes count.” No retconning. That’s directly from the book. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/57 "2010-11-19T01:44:10Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > In other words, it’s a coming-of-age story. With powered armor. > > If Verhoeven thought the bugs were “more crucial” than the armor, then he’s a moron. Who clearly didn’t read the book. I read the book. I struggled to find the story. Sorry, but I really can’t see why the book is held up as such a science fiction classic. Then again, so many fans of the book can’t see why I like the film so much. Swings and roundabouts I guess. Oh and I don’t think Verhoeven thought either the bugs or the power armour were particularly crucial. For him it was all about coming of age and politics. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/58 "2010-11-19T01:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > If Verhoeven thought the bugs were “more crucial” than the armor, then he’s a moron. Who clearly didn’t read the book. Fair enough, but you can’t fault the outcome in regards to giant quality CGI insects. 12+ years later and the SFX in that film still look good. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/59 "2010-11-19T01:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > WTF alla y’all mentioning his juvies got no love for two of my faves: Space Cadet and Red Planet? Howdy, brother! _Space Cadet_ is my favorite of the juvies, too, and you’re the first person I’ve met who shared my appreciation for it. My ranking: Space Cadet Tunnel in the Sky Farmer in the Sky Podkayne of Mars The Rolling Stones Citizen of the Galaxy The Star Beast Red Planet Orphans of the Sky Have Spacesuit-- Will Travel Starman Jones Between Planets Time for the Stars It’s funny… When I read that post, I said to myself “Yeah, and _Red Planet_ is another one of my favorites”, but then when I made the list, I could think of all those others that were even better. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075/60 "2010-11-19T01:55:58Z")
**Orphans of the Sky** wasn’t one of the juveniles. It was a mash-up of two novellas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-read-starship-troopers-for-the-first-time/561075.md?page=4)