Just read Starship Troopers for the first time.

[silenus]

I would think that a list of Dopers who are what they are today because they discovered what the books with the yellow band with the atom on it at the Library contained would be a long one.

[QUOTE=Captaine Zombie]
If you look at how the movie failed at box office in the US, and is still considered a personal insult there, as opposed to how well it fared in the rest of the world, and how well its combination of action and satire was received, I think you’ll see it’s really all about personal ideology, rather than artistic merits.
[/QUOTE]

No, it was about artistic merit. The movie has none.

[Fenris]

@Jonathan_Chance

Y
That book was Red Planet. My life changed forever at age 10 because of that book. It is, without a doubt, one of the formative moments of my life.

Substitute Have Spacesuit and I had the exact same experience.

[Bricker]

@silenus

I would think that a list of Dopers who are what they are today because they discovered what the books with the yellow band with the atom on it at the Library contained would be a long one.

Hear, hear!

I remember walking down the rows of books at the library with my eye peeled for just that flag. All the Heinlein juvies, the Lucky Starr series… life was good.

[Bricker]

@Fenris

True, dat.

This silly canard comes from a hit-piece a disgruntled fan (who became a serious and very thoughtful reviewer in later years) did on Heinlein where he claimed that all of Heinlein’s male characters fit into one of three molds (young/strong, middle-aged/competent, old/wise). The problem is that almost every male character fits into one of those three molds. Gilligan/The Professor/Skipper (or Mr. Howell) for example.

The “They’re all Heinlein” thing totally disintegrates with three words “The Great Lorenzo”. NOTHING like anything we know about any aspect of Heinlein or his life.

I of course absolutely agree that Heinlein’s characters are distinguishable, easily.

And I agree The Great Lorenzo is more unique than most.

But in fairness, remember that Heinlein did dabble in politics… more “A Bathroom of Her Own,” of course, than Prime Minister, but I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say Double Star was “NOTHING like anything we know about any aspect of Heinlein or his life.”

[Fenris]

@Bricker

I of course absolutely agree that Heinlein’s characters are distinguishable, easily.

And I agree The Great Lorenzo is more unique than most.

But in fairness, remember that Heinlein did dabble in politics… more “A Bathroom of Her Own,” of course, than Prime Minister, but I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say Double Star was “NOTHING like anything we know about any aspect of Heinlein or his life.”

Not Double Star-Lorenzo. He was a pompous conceited totally self-absorbed jerkass who became a selfless servant of the state, willing to erase his own identity.

I can see traces of Heinlein in Dak Broadbent and whatshisname–the other guy. But Lorenzo is the protagonist and (IMO) is nothing like Heinlein.

[Sam_Stone]

@Bricker

Hear, hear!

I remember walking down the rows of books at the library with my eye peeled for just that flag. All the Heinlein juvies, the Lucky Starr series… life was good.

Heinlein has been a major influence on my worldview and my life. I know it sounds strange to say that about a science fiction author, but it’s true.

I grew up without a dad and without much guidance at all from my family. I spent a lot of time alone, and used to hang out in the library a lot - by grade six I was riding the bus downtown on my own to the public library, and I’d sit in there for hours while my mother was working.

My school had a copy of ‘Have Space Suit - Will travel’. I read that, and instantly had to have more. I went to the public library, and started signing out Heinlein’s juveniles. I’d read one every day, then go back for more. The library wouldn’t let you check out more than two books at a time, so I’d have to take the bus back there every couple of days to stock up. I raced through all the juveniles, then got permission to go into the adult section and get his other books. Eventually, I branched out into other science fiction, then more general literature and non-fiction. Those constant trips to the library to get my Heinlein fix exposed me to a lot more than Heinlein.

By the time I was in high school, I had probably read every Heinlein juvenile at least five times, and his other works at least twice. His characters were my father figures, and I tried to live my the moral rules laid out in those books. It kept me in school and it drove me to higher education when just about every other kid in my cohort dropped out. I even wrote a few letters to Robert to express my gratitude to him for keeping me on the straight and narrow and inspiring me to study science and engineering. Virginia responded to every one very personally (she did all his correspondence by that time).

I think Heinlein was a bigger influence on me than anyone in my own family or any of my teachers. I owed him a hell of a lot.

And even though it sounds crazy to say it, I think my experience was repeated by a lot of young people around that time. Heinlein’s influence extends far beyond most other writers in any genre. Ask any forty or fifty-something engineer, and you’re likely to find that they were influenced in part by Heinlein.

Heinlein is also considered to be one of the major influences of many libertarians. Perhaps second only to Ayn Rand in the number of people an author managed to convert to libertarian/free market philosophy, but Heinlein was more practical and more coherent than Rand, and had a better feel for political nuance and the limitations of any philosophy. Less dogma, more critical thinking.

[WordMan]

Well put, Sam Stone. Heinlein was a central part of my canon growing up, too.

[msmith537]

@Irishman

There’s no power armor - Verhoeven claims he only had CGI budget for either bugs or armor, but not both, and the bugs were more crucial. What he failed to account for was the significance in capability that the powered armor provided, so by removing it but leaving the tactics the same, he made the military idiots.

I think there’s a bit of a story-telling issue as well. How do you tell a story about a bunch of characters all wearing identical faceless power armored suits most of the time (I’ve never read the book, but I assume their power armor is something like what the Master Chief wears in Halo). Or do you do the corny Gears of War thing where you have the characters in massive bulky armor, all except for their exposed heads?

Two recent movies where power armor featured prominantly - Avatar and The Matrix sequals - the suits looked bulky and stupid. And I can’t help but think a large reason they looked that way was because they had massive open or glass cockpits so you could see the actor inside.

[running_coach]

The suits are described in the book as making the wearer look like a hydrocephalitic gorilla.

[Capitaine_Zombie]

@msmith537

I think there’s a bit of a story-telling issue as well. How do you tell a story about a bunch of characters all wearing identical faceless power armored suits most of the time (I’ve never read the book, but I assume their power armor is something like what the Master Chief wears in Halo). Or do you do the corny Gears of War thing where you have the characters in massive bulky armor, all except for their exposed heads?

Two recent movies where power armor featured prominantly - Avatar and The Matrix sequals - the suits looked bulky and stupid. And I can’t help but think a large reason they looked that way was because they had massive open or glass cockpits so you could see the actor inside.

Easy, you take the Iron Man way of doing it, if you dont want a transparent helmet. Go for “internal shots” of the armor. Worked well on IM, and resolved the problem all supeheroes with total face masks have (see how cheesy Spiderman did, as a counter-example to that)

[MarcusF]

With so many others, I’m in the “Heinlein was a key influence in my world view” camp. In my case it was Space Cadet that I found in my school library when I was 10 or so - never looked back.

ps 50 something engineer (or I was before captured by management :dubious: )

[Bricker]

@Fenris

Not Double Star-Lorenzo. He was a pompous conceited totally self-absorbed jerkass who became a selfless servant of the state, willing to erase his own identity.

I can see traces of Heinlein in Dak Broadbent and whatshisname–the other guy. But Lorenzo is the protagonist and (IMO) is nothing like Heinlein.

What do you mean – not “Double Star?” Aren’t we talking about that novel titled Double Star, with the characters Dak, Penny, Roger, and the Right Honorable John Joseph Bonforte? And, of course, The Great Lorenzo, aka Lawrence “Larry” Smith? Is he not the “Double Star” punned in the title?

[Green_Bean]

@Lynn_Bodoni

Several people have recommended Podkayne of Mars. I would like to point out that there is the old edition, where Heinlein was forced by his editor to serve up a “suitable” ending, and the edition that was put out later, with the ending that Heinlein originally wrote. If at all possible, get the edition with Heinlein’s ending, or with both endings. Heinlein’s ending is better, IMO.

I didn’t know that. I have an ancient copy which must have had the old ending, 'cause I didn’t like it so much. Thanks.

@msmith537

I think there’s a bit of a story-telling issue as well. How do you tell a story about a bunch of characters all wearing identical faceless power armored suits most of the time

Easy. In the book, the experienced soldiers made a big distinction between noobs that had never made a drop and those who had. It was a big deal when they came back from their first drop and were suddenly treated like one of the guys.

So add in something like the custom is “after you make your first drop, you get to choose colors/icons/something to add to your armor.” Johnny could have something really distinctive. Then you’d only have to worry about differentiating for his first drop.

I don’t remember offhand what his first drop was like in the book. But in the movie, you could easily make it a relatively simple maneuver, making it easy (or even unnecessary) to make him stand out from the others, while using some of the “internal shots” suggested by Captaine Zombie to see what’s going on with him personally. (And of course, to always do that.)
Making a cool-looking power armor would be a movie fx guy’s wet dream.

[Fenris]

@Bricker

What do you mean – not “Double Star?” Aren’t we talking about that novel titled Double Star, with the characters Dak, Penny, Roger, and the Right Honorable John Joseph Bonforte? And, of course, The Great Lorenzo, aka Lawrence “Larry” Smith? Is he not the “Double Star” punned in the title?

Heh–we are not communicating well.

You said

But in fairness, remember that Heinlein did dabble in politics… more “A Bathroom of Her Own,” of course, than Prime Minister, but I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say Double Star was “NOTHING like anything we know about any aspect of Heinlein or his life.”

I was trying to say that my original assertion is that The Great Lorenzo–the character–is nothing like Heinlein and not that there are not characters in Double Star the novel who have traits that Heinlein may share

[muldoonthief]

@Green_Bean

I don’t remember offhand what his first drop was like in the book. But in the movie, you could easily make it a relatively simple maneuver, making it easy (or even unnecessary) to make him stand out from the others, while using some of the “internal shots” suggested by Captaine Zombie to see what’s going on with him personally. (And of course, to always do that.)

The book opened with Johnny as an assistant section leader, making the drop on the Skinny world where Dizzy Flores (male, and a non-character) died. Then it jumped back to his final days in high school/signing up/Basic, etc. His first drop chronologically in the book was the drop on Klendathu, “Operation Bughouse”, where several divisions dropped to bring the Bugs to their knees and win the war. This drop went very, very badly for the MI, and Johnny’s unit (which lost over 50% of it’s members) was dissolved, so he was transferred to the Roughnecks.

[Green_Bean]

@muldoonthief

The book opened with Johnny as an assistant section leader, making the drop on the Skinny world where Dizzy Flores (male, and a non-character) died. Then it jumped back to his final days in high school/signing up/Basic, etc. His first drop chronologically in the book was the drop on Klendathu, “Operation Bughouse”, where several divisions dropped to bring the Bugs to their knees and win the war. This drop went very, very badly for the MI, and Johnny’s unit (which lost over 50% of it’s members) was dissolved, so he was transferred to the Roughnecks.

Oh, thanks. Then you could just show the soldiers getting into their armor, each one having distinct colors or whatever. Drive the point home by having the guys tease each other a bit over the colors they are using.

[BrotherCadfael]

@muldoonthief

The book opened with Johnny as an assistant section leader, making the drop on the Skinny world

One of the best things about this scene is the 30-second bomb – “I’'m a 30-second bomb! I’m a 30-second bomb! 29! 28!..” – the idea being, of course, not to kill the people in the target zone, but to scare the pants off of them, making them either run, or do something stupid.

I could see this being very useful in an urban combat situation.

[muldoonthief]

@BrotherCadfael

One of the best things about this scene is the 30-second bomb – “I’'m a 30-second bomb! I’m a 30-second bomb! 29! 28!..” – the idea being, of course, not to kill the people in the target zone, but to scare the pants off of them, making them either run, or do something stupid.

I could see this being very useful in an urban combat situation.

The first chapter of Starship Troopers is, IMHO, the best science fiction combat short story of all time.

[msmith537]

@Green_Bean

Easy. In the book, the experienced soldiers made a big distinction between noobs that had never made a drop and those who had. It was a big deal when they came back from their first drop and were suddenly treated like one of the guys.

So add in something like the custom is “after you make your first drop, you get to choose colors/icons/something to add to your armor.” Johnny could have something really distinctive. Then you’d only have to worry about differentiating for his first drop.
..

Making a cool-looking power armor would be a movie fx guy’s wet dream.

Sure, you could distguish the suits of the main characters with various “nose art” and whatnot. But it’s difficult for the characters to “emote” when they are all dressed like faceless stormtroopers. The Iron Man films were pretty effective at portraying Tony Stark in his suit. But keep in mind that Iron Man is effectively a superhero. It’s ok for him to appear to be an emotionless automaton on the outside.

I’m not saying it can’t be done or even that it shouldn’t be done. Clearly we have the technology now. Basically my point is that as a director, it’s a lot more difficult and complex (and thus expensive) to film a compelling story about actual human beings if they are covered in performance enhancing armor. If done poorly, it can have all the appeal of watching a Halo battle.

If you only have enough CGI budget for powerarmored infantry and a faceless mass of giant insects, I can see why Verhoevan made the decision to go with bugs.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@MarcusF

With so many others, I’m in the “Heinlein was a key influence in my world view” camp. In my case it was Space Cadet that I found in my school library when I was 10 or so - never looked back.

Well, I was gonna type that, but Marcus already did.