# Just saw Gran Torino (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942 "2008-12-19T17:52:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/81 "2009-07-28T03:54:43Z")
Because if you read **mswas’s** post, Walt becomes a lot less confusing. > [@mswas](#): > > The point of the story was that his racism wasn’t that deeply ingrained in his heart, it was just a superficial characteristic that went unquestioned because he never had to question it. When it came time to set it aside, he did so, and easily. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/82 "2009-07-28T04:02:51Z")
Well that’s one take, but it isn’t the only one. Walt seems like an independent thinker; he calls bullshit when he sees it. I also think his racism is a coping mechanism to deal with the horrors of war. If he thinks Koreans and Asians writ large are less than him, it’s a lot easier to sleep at night when you’ve shot them to death. This seems pretty clear when he says to the gangbanger, “We used to stack [chinks? gooks?] like you five feet deep in Korea,” right after he threatens to shoot him in the face and then sleep like a baby. With the White guys it’s more like a breaking balls thing. He calls the barber a wop, the foreman a mick, and they give it back to him. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/83 "2009-07-28T04:03:48Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Just watched it and felt it was a little heavy handed. I felt that as a viewer I was not left to figure out what was happening but was hammered over the head with it. I thought Eastwoods “growl and scowl” was over the top and overused. I did not like the scene where he took Thao to the barbershop at all. I don’t mind the non-PC aspect, just thought it unrealistic and I grew up with some pretty non-PC type people. > > I am an Eastwood fan but felt this was not his best as actor or director. I have to agree with this. I thought his performance was pretty lousy. Same with the two kids. > [@mswas](#): > > **Taber** I think you are making a mistake that is common in today’s day and age thinking that everything has to be a sociopolitical moral message. The story wasn’t even about racism, and it wasn’t about redeeming the main character, I have to disagree with this. It was totally about redeeming the main character. It even included a Jesus pose. > [@mswas](#): > > Walt was a racist just because he was a crotchety old fuck from that generation. The racism was more a function of the setting than a function of the character, and that’s ultimately the point of the movie. The story is a story of redemption, but Walt isn’t being redeemed from his racism, he is being redeemed from a sense of pointlessness that he could have fallen into in his twilight years. His relationship to Thao gave him a new lease on life, and he sacrificed himself for his love of Thao and the rest of the Hmong in his neighborhood. The point of the story was that his racism wasn’t that deeply ingrained in his heart, it was just a superficial characteristic that went unquestioned because he never had to question it. When it came time to set it aside, he did so, and easily. I do agree with this. His racism was more knee-jerk than actually all that deep. And in the end, it was more about doing the right thing and not letting his racism interfere. Still, I found the movie disappointing. Story was OK, not great (I really didn’t buy that he could intimidate hardcore gangbangers). Performances were weak. I wouldn’t recommend it. But I seem to be in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/84 "2009-07-28T04:13:11Z")
> [@](#): > > (I really didn’t buy that he could intimidate hardcore gangbangers) What made them so hardcore? We never saw them doing a single thing that shows them to be actually hard core as opposed to just being tough guys who know how to acquire and shoot guns. They did do the drive-by shooting (which is still a pussy move), so I don’t think they were all _that_ intimidated by Walt unless he has a fucking gun in the face of another banger. They just knew which fights to fight (When they think he’s gonna pull a gun on them) and which ones not to (again, with a gun in someone’s face, they know to just come back later) ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/85 "2009-07-28T04:25:16Z")
I’m from a fairly rough neighborhood, and Walt had better be armed to the teeth and watch his back at all times. Gangs aren’t comprised of logical, Art of War thinking types. There are a lot of hotheads and dumbasses and wannabes who’d get revenge back on Walt. The scene with the Black guys was one thing; he might be in a neighborhood a little ways away from where he lived. Maybe knowing that he was a terminal case gave him some fearlessness. But it was a lucky thing those jackasses on the corner didn’t have a car or a weapon on them. I’ve known a lot of gangbangers. Not many of them are smart. They’re typically insecure, Napoleon-syndrome hotheads. If you embarrass or humiliate them they don’t just walk it off; they make it their mission in life to embarrass and fuck with you even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/86 "2009-07-28T05:21:31Z")
I have a 69 Torino GT! 😛 Anybody care? ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/87 "2009-07-28T05:22:15Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I have a 69 Torino GT! 😛 > > Anybody care? Pics or it’s not true! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/88 "2009-07-28T05:33:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Taber** I think you are making a mistake that is common in today’s day and age thinking that everything has to be a sociopolitical moral message. The story wasn’t even about racism, and it wasn’t about redeeming the main character, it was about the relationship between the man and his neighborhood. It wasn’t about redeeming the main character? He martyrs himself, and falls down, forming a cross with his body. > [@mswas](#): > > If you are looking to forgive the character for his racism you’re missing the point, not to mention thinking too highly of your own opinion and it’s value. The story was a character driven plot. It was a story about human beings, and did a pretty good job of portraying them realistically. Walt was a racist just because he was a crotchety old fuck from that generation. The racism was more a function of the setting than a function of the character, and that’s ultimately the point of the movie. The story is a story of redemption, but Walt isn’t being redeemed from his racism, he is being redeemed from a sense of pointlessness that he could have fallen into in his twilight years. His relationship to Thao gave him a new lease on life, and he sacrificed himself for his love of Thao and the rest of the Hmong in his neighborhood. The point of the story was that his racism wasn’t that deeply ingrained in his heart, it was just a superficial characteristic that went unquestioned because he never had to question it. When it came time to set it aside, he did so, and easily. My problem was that it tried way too hard to convince us that Walt isn’t that racist. They avoid him calling black people any names that people might have trouble forgiving him for. Sure, he calls Thao some racist things, but Oh look he gets him a job, and some tools, and a girlfriend, and a cheap fridge, and a car. He’s practically superman! And oh look, he doesn’t call Thao racist things because he’s racist, he calls Thao racist things because that’s just how he talks, see him talk to the barber. They are friends! The movie is very clear that it wants me to accept Walt as not really racist. My objection isn’t that I think Walt is morally evil and should be reviled. My objection is that the movie edges toward a very controversial and powerful character, but chickens out and backs out of any controversial bits. A flawed hero is better in my mind than a perfect one who says some bad things. They lay it on really thick, with all the favors to Thao and the barber scenes. Sorry for having opinions about movies. I will try to avoid it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/89 "2009-07-28T05:38:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Also I don’t agree with the current line of thinking which insists that racism, of any kind, is **THE ABSOLUTE WORST thing EVER** and that even the slightest bit of prejudice immediately invalidates anything good or decent about a person. Guess what - nobody’s perfect! Someone who’s a racist might also be a great husband and a hard worker or a great artist. Someone who fights for civil rights might also abuse his wife or fuck little boys. We shouldn’t be so wrapped up in whether or not someone is racist that we ignore other things about them. > > And it’s possible for people to change, also. Someone might grudgingly grow to accept and even pro-actively like people of other races, even if he didn’t at first. > > And also - amazingly - it’s possible to make racial jokes and not automatically be a Nazi. A movie about that would probably be pretty good. Gran Torino isn’t that movie, it tries to convince us that Walt isn’t racist. It does very well, I enjoyed Clint Eastwood kicking ass a lot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/90 "2009-07-28T05:40:56Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > It wasn’t about redeeming the main character? He martyrs himself, and falls down, forming a cross with his body. Sorry, I misspoke, I meant to correct that before posting. > [@](#): > > My problem was that it tried way too hard to convince us that Walt isn’t that racist. They avoid him calling black people any names that people might have trouble forgiving him for. Sure, he calls Thao some racist things, but Oh look he gets him a job, and some tools, and a girlfriend, and a cheap fridge, and a car. He’s practically superman! And oh look, he doesn’t call Thao racist things because he’s racist, he calls Thao racist things because that’s just how he talks, see him talk to the barber. They are friends! The movie is very clear that it wants me to accept Walt as not really racist. I think you believe that racism is far more important to people’s lives than it is. It’s not that it isn’t racist, it’s that it’s not that important that he’s a racist. > [@](#): > > My objection isn’t that I think Walt is morally evil and should be reviled. My objection is that the movie edges toward a very controversial and powerful character, but chickens out and backs out of any controversial bits. A flawed hero is better in my mind than a perfect one who says some bad things. They lay it on really thick, with all the favors to Thao and the barber scenes. Eh, I disagree. I think the point is that he’s just one of those crotchety old dudes who is casually racist without holding any real animosity toward people because of that racism. He’s a surly old fuck and finds reasons to be pissy to people regardless of racial identity. As the show goes on it shows that he feels far more affinity for the working class Hmong than he does for his own yuppy children. > [@](#): > > Sorry for having opinions about movies. I will try to avoid it in the future. Heh, no reason to be like that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/91 "2009-07-28T05:45:59Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > What made them so hardcore? We never saw them doing a single thing that shows them to be actually hard core as opposed to just being tough guys who know how to acquire and shoot guns. > > They did do the drive-by shooting (which is still a pussy move), so I don’t think they were all _that_ intimidated by Walt unless he has a fucking gun in the face of another banger. They just knew which fights to fight (When they think he’s gonna pull a gun on them) and which ones not to (again, with a gun in someone’s face, they know to just come back later) I don’t know the final scene shows that they are absolutely pants-shitting terrified of Walt. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/92 "2009-07-28T05:50:26Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > It wasn’t about redeeming the main character? He martyrs himself, and falls down, forming a cross with his body. > > My problem was that it tried way too hard to convince us that Walt isn’t that racist. They avoid him calling black people any names that people might have trouble forgiving him for. Sure, he calls Thao some racist things, but Oh look he gets him a job, and some tools, and a girlfriend, and a cheap fridge, and a car. He’s practically superman! And oh look, he doesn’t call Thao racist things because he’s racist, he calls Thao racist things because that’s just how he talks, see him talk to the barber. They are friends! The movie is very clear that it wants me to accept Walt as not really racist. > > My objection isn’t that I think Walt is morally evil and should be reviled. My objection is that the movie edges toward a very controversial and powerful character, but chickens out and backs out of any controversial bits. A flawed hero is better in my mind than a perfect one who says some bad things. They lay it on really thick, with all the favors to Thao and the barber scenes. > > Sorry for having opinions about movies. I will try to avoid it in the future. I agree with this 100% - thanks for clarifying it. You’re absolutely right. That was the big flaw in the film. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/93 "2009-07-28T05:51:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Eh, I disagree. I think the point is that he’s just one of those crotchety old dudes who is casually racist without holding any real animosity toward people because of that racism. He’s a surly old fuck and finds reasons to be pissy to people regardless of racial identity. As the show goes on it shows that he feels far more affinity for the working class Hmong than he does for his own yuppy children. I agree with what you say here completely. ^^^Well shoot, group hug time. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/94 "2009-07-28T06:16:55Z")
/me group hugs. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/95 "2009-07-31T06:02:28Z")
Yes, it had a heartwarming story, and many hilarious scenes. But man, the Hmong actors were, by and large, terrible. And that terrible, terrible song at the end, with what is CLEARLY Clint Eastwood’s voice, crooning in a most sensitive manner, after having been an utter hardass all movie long. Holy crap, that was so jarring that I laughed out loud. The movie had a good heart. Don’t get me wrong. But the young priest was a terrible actor. Thao was a terrible actor. His sister - terrible acting. Plus, it’s just the latest in a long series of Clint Eastwood “all about Clint getting old, but still being a badass” films. ---
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/96 "2009-07-31T06:56:25Z")
Meh, while I enjoyed it, I definitely think it was a missed opportunity for a much better film. They didn’t really go very deep into Clint’s demons… it was more like “yeah i had to do bad things and stuff in the war”. Additionally, the way that his racism was framed… it almost appeared as comic relief rather than a true deep-seated character flaw that was to be overcome. Had they explored this a bit deeper, we may have been able to appreciate more his transition from a xenophobic codger to an empathetic protagonist. I agree with the acting. The priest was definitely miscast (i’d hesitate to call him a bad actor with just this one example). I’m not sure what would have been lost in the story had they had a more mature and experienced character there. As I understand it, the actors playing Thao and his sister are not professional actors. One thing that struck me as odd… after the incident with the gun on the lawn, the priest asks Clint why he didn’t just call the police. Later, after the incident that put Thao’s sister in the hospital, the priest grills Clint asking him repeatedly “what are you going to do?”. It seemed to me as if he was trying to incite him to action, yet after that scene the priest calls the police worrying that Clint would actually do something. WTF? Oh - yeah and the song at the end… definitely cheesy. At any rate, great idea… mediocre execution. However, still enjoyable. I’d call it “Lite Fare” if it were on a menu. ---
**Author:** ![Eugene\_of\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c37758/32.png) [@Eugene\_of\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eugene_of_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/97 "2009-07-31T07:06:25Z")
Was that the one with the young girl trying to be a boxer? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/98 "2009-07-31T07:10:07Z")
> [@sweepkick](#): > > One thing that struck me as odd… after the incident with the gun on the lawn, the priest asks Clint why he didn’t just call the police. Later, after the incident that put Thao’s sister in the hospital, the priest grills Clint asking him repeatedly “what are you going to do?”. It seemed to me as if he was trying to incite him to action, yet after that scene the priest calls the police worrying that Clint would actually do something. WTF? Yeah, I noticed that too. Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/99 "2009-07-31T07:19:24Z")
I thought it was funny and at times good but way too predictable and stock “curmudgeon with a heart of gold” character. Cardboard characters all around, including the grandkids I wanted to slug. His “that’s just stupid” line cracked me up though. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942/100 "2009-07-31T07:44:58Z")
> [@sweepkick](#): > > Additionally, the way that his racism was framed… it almost appeared as comic relief rather than a true deep-seated character flaw that was to be overcome. Had they explored this a bit deeper, we may have been able to appreciate more his transition from a xenophobic codger to an empathetic protagonist. And yeah. This is a good point. **Sampiro** , I’d much rather have seen this filmed in, y’know, Wedowee. Or the town where the white students hung nooses in the trees recently when a black kid started acting all uppity. Or with characters like that guy I once met who commented during a football game to “set a pit bull loose after that nigger. That’ll make him run.” You and I both know that stuff exists, and would have made a better movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-gran-torino-spoilers/477942.md?page=6)