# Just saw Watchmen - questions for fans of the Graphic Novel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164 "2009-07-15T23:08:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/41 "2009-07-16T19:36:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You must be using a special meaning of the word _loveable_. None of the major characters are even likable, except for Dan & Laurie. Admittedly, Manhattan’s unlikeability is not entirely his fault. No, no. He’s employed the rarely used definition of “lovable,” which means “I should wear my brown pants, because he scares the crap out of me.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/42 "2009-07-16T19:54:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I think the special meaning of “loveable” went whoosh over your head. No, I was just being snarky. I do that on days named of Norse gods, Roman gods, or celestial objects. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/43 "2009-07-16T20:32:00Z")
[quote=“Morbo, post:1, topic:503164”] [li] Why didn’t all the other scientists turn into Dr. Manhattan-like beings when they got zapped like he did? (I thought that’s what was going to happen - that he’d have to fight ten similar blue-guys).[/li][/QUOTE] Well, let’s put it this way : would _you_ be willing to get zapped and deconstructed at the atomic level on the off chance that you could somehow will yourself back into existence ? Didn’t think so 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/44 "2009-07-16T20:38:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As to Rorschach’s mask, it seems to me that if it’s sheer enough for him to see through it well enough to fight even in low light, then it’s sheer enough for his enemies to see his face. Yes, but think of those movies that have bank robbers wearing panty-hose over their heads. Totally sheer, you can tell if they smile or sneer, but reasonably effective as a disguise because your face is all mooshed. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/45 "2009-07-16T20:40:42Z")
I myself couldn’t suspend my disbelief enough so that President Nixon got re-elected that many times. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/46 "2009-07-16T20:50:14Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I myself couldn’t suspend my disbelief enough so that President Nixon got re-elected that many times. 😃 That was part of the supers’ effect on the world. Seriously. It’s hinted in the series that Nixon had the Comedian whack Kennedy. He used Manhattan to end the war in Vietnam, and used the popularity he gained from that and from Manhattan’s muscling the Soviets to get the 22nd amendment repealed and himself re-elected so many times. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/47 "2009-07-16T20:54:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Nixon had […] the 22nd amendment repealed and himself re-elected so many times. Was he really re-elected that many times? I dimly recall the phrase “President for Life Richard Nixon.” ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/48 "2009-07-16T20:58:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That was part of the supers’ effect on the world. Seriously. > > It’s hinted in the series that Nixon had the Comedian whack Kennedy. He used Manhattan to end the war in Vietnam, and used the popularity he gained from that and from Manhattan’s muscling the Soviets to get the 22nd amendment repealed and himself re-elected so many times. Also, in the comics at least, those 2 Jew reporters were found dead in a garage in Washington. No Watergate to force a resignation, and a continuation of dirty tricks as needed could add up to lots of re-elections. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/49 "2009-07-16T21:08:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Hmm. You know, that never occurred to me before. If you liked that observation, let me unload my major Watchmen notion - Rorschach and (the second) Nite Owl are Batman dissected into two parts: the person with a horrible childhood obsessed with enforcing his vision of justice, and the brilliant but goalless heir turning to crimefighting out of ennui. Note that the two of them were partners for a lengthy period and that after they broke up, Rorschach lost his sanity and Dan started drifting through life. Holy “Enemy Within” Batman! ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/50 "2009-07-16T21:09:58Z")
Thanks for the responses guys! Just wanted to let you know the OP (me) is still reading. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/51 "2009-07-16T21:10:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You must be using a special meaning of the word _loveable_. None of the major characters are even likable, except for Dan & Laurie. Admittedly, Manhattan’s unlikeability is not entirely his fault. The one truly likeable character in the book is a significant character, but not quite a major one - Hollis Mason, the first Nite Owl, who seems to be geniunely decent (the moment when Dan loses his temper after Hollis is murdered, and Rorshach (!) has to rein Dan in is one of my favorite in the book) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/52 "2009-07-16T21:18:00Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The one truly likeable character in the book is a significant character, but not quite a major one - Hollis Mason, the first Nite Owl, who seems to be geniunely decent (the moment when Dan loses his temper after Hollis is murdered, and Rorshach (!) has to rein Dan in is one of my favorite in the book) Why is Dan not likable? I can see being ambivalent about Laurie, but Dan’s a mensch. Watchmen’s full of likeable characters; it’s just that most of them are minor. I like both cops who went to arrest Dan, for instance. The prison psychologist seems to be a decent fellow. The estranged lesbian couple were good people too, and the news stand vendor, and the artist who realized the boat he and his new girlfriend were on was about to go boom and there was no time to even shit his pants. That’s the point of having them, so there’s people around you wish weren’t killed. Ozymandias is likable until you realize he’s a mass murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/53 "2009-07-16T21:31:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Why is Dan not likable? I can see being ambivalent about Laurie, but Dan’s a mensch. > > Watchmen’s full of likeable characters; it’s just that most of them are minor. I like both cops who went to arrest Dan, for instance. The prison psychologist seems to be a decent fellow. The estranged lesbian couple were good people too, and the news stand vendor, and the artist who realized the boat he and his new girlfriend were on was about to go boom and there was no time to even shit his pants. That’s the point of having them, so there’s people around you wish weren’t killed. > > Ozymandias is likable until you realize he’s a mass murderer. You know, you’re right - I’m being unfair to Dan and the others. Dan’s a decent guy. Bernard the newstand runner comes through when it counts (attempting to save Bernie the kid), and the GWAR couple, too. Hollis is probably the most significant character who has a fairly normal psyche (no coincidence that we get to see the original costumed adventurers through his book) - he liked being the Nite Owl, but could build a successful life for himself when he stopped being Nite Owl (unlike Dan). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/54 "2009-07-16T21:42:34Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > You know, you’re right - I’m being unfair to Dan and the others. Dan’s a decent guy. Bernard the newstand runner comes through when it counts (attempting to save Bernie the kid), and the GWAR couple, too. Hollis is probably the most significant character who has a fairly normal psyche (no coincidence that we get to see the original costumed adventurers through his book) - he liked being the Nite Owl, but could build a successful life for himself when he stopped being Nite Owl (unlike Dan). I don’t see Dan’s post-hero life as unsuccessful. He doesn’t have a job, true, but that’s because he’s independently wealthy; why should he punch a 9-to-5 clock? He doesn’t parlay his money into Ozymandias-level billions, true, but he doesn’t want those billions anyway. He writes articles about his hobbies; he has at least one good friend. The one way I’d call him unsuccessful is in romance. But he isn’t single because he’s longing for his nights in tights; he’s single because he’s in love with the unavailable Laurie. The senior Night Owl (I believe the spellign differs) never marries either. And I think his momentary impotence on that first night with Laurie is less about not wearing the tights and more about the impending destruction of human civilization. He was not the only person having issues with that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/55 "2009-07-16T21:43:19Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > If you liked that observation, let me unload my major Watchmen notion - Rorschach and (the second) Nite Owl are Batman dissected into two parts: the person with a horrible childhood obsessed with enforcing his vision of justice, and the brilliant but goalless heir turning to crimefighting out of ennui. Note that the two of them were partners for a lengthy period and that after they broke up, Rorschach lost his sanity and Dan started drifting through life. Holy “Enemy Within” Batman! I had the same thought last night while reading the book when I was supposed to be sleeping. Of course, that was about the 86th time I’d had that thought when I was reading Watchmen when I should’ve been sleeping, but the point is, I agree, and I think it’s a great touch by Moore. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/56 "2009-07-16T21:47:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But he isn’t single because he’s longing for his nights in tights; he’s single because he’s in love with the unavailable Laurie. I didn’t notice this until the other day, but before Laurie, he apparently had a thing for ex-nemesis “The Twilight Lady.” He has an autographed picture of her, and she shows up in the atomic bomb fantasy before Laurie does. He hasn’t been pining for Laurie all those years, he’s just been pining for the life. I wouldn’t say Dan’s a miserable failure. He’s a decent human being, but he’s aimless and dorky, and living in the past because he was able to fulfill his own fantasy life when he was Nite Owl. > [@](#): > > The senior Night Owl (I believe the spellign differs) never marries either. You’re correct about the marriage, but not the spelling. > [@](#): > > And I think his momentary impotence on that first night with Laurie is less about not wearing the tights and more about the impending destruction of human civilization. He was not the only person having issues with that. Eh. I guess that’s plausible, but later he speaks explicitly about the costumes making the sex better and admits it’s good to get that off his chest. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/57 "2009-07-16T22:58:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t see Dan’s post-hero life as unsuccessful. He doesn’t have a job, true, but that’s because he’s independently wealthy; why should he punch a 9-to-5 clock? He doesn’t parlay his money into Ozymandias-level billions, true, but he doesn’t want those billions anyway. He writes articles about his hobbies; he has at least one good friend. > > The one way I’d call him unsuccessful is in romance. But he isn’t single because he’s longing for his nights in tights; he’s single because he’s in love with the unavailable Laurie. The senior Night Owl (I believe the spellign differs) never marries either. And I think his momentary impotence on that first night with Laurie is less about not wearing the tights and more about the impending destruction of human civilization. He was not the only person having issues with that. I don’t have a copy of the book in front of me, but I seem to recall that Dan seemed very awkward and nervous in every interaction with other people, except for those encounters which took place in costume (visiting with Hollis is the only exception I can think of). On the other hand, all of the encounters I’m thinking of are with people that Dan has good reason to be nervous around (Rorshach, Laurie, the police who come into Dan’s house, Dr. Manhattan) - so it’s possible that I’m imagining Dan as a more awkward person than he really is, because he’s having a week full of unavoidably awkward encounters. I’ve always interpreted the Dan who is married to Laurie at the end of the novel as a fellow who is happy because he’s buried his demons, and changed from the way he was before. But it’s possible that what has happened is simply that at the end of the book Dan has merely regained his equilibrium after a few really bad weeks, and is now again the well-integrated person he was before the Comedian’s funeral. (I do recall that at the moment when Dr Manhattan puts his foot through the roof of Oxymandias’ Arctic palace, one person in the room screams in terror: not Laurie, not Adrian, not Kovacs, but Dan) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/58 "2009-07-16T23:03:30Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I don’t have a copy of the book in front of me, but I seem to recall that Dan seemed very awkward and nervous in every interaction with other people, except for those encounters which took place in costume (visiting with Hollis is the only exception I can think of). On the other hand, all of the encounters I’m thinking of are with people that Dan has good reason to be nervous around (Rorshach, Laurie, the police who come into Dan’s house, Dr. Manhattan) - so it’s possible that I’m imagining Dan as a more awkward person than he really is, because he’s having a week full of unavoidably awkward encounters. I’ve always interpreted the Dan who is married to Laurie at the end of the novel as a fellow who is happy because he’s buried his demons, and changed from the way he was before. But it’s possible that what has happened is simply that at the end of the book Dan has merely regained his equilibrium after a few really bad weeks, and is now again the well-integrated person he was before the Comedian’s funeral. > > (I do recall that at the moment when Dr Manhattan puts his foot through the roof of Oxymandias’ Arctic palace, one person in the room screams in terror: not Laurie, not Adrian, not Kovacs, but Dan) Maybe Dad was just the smart one. Having said that, I don’t recall him screaming in terror. Nor do I recall him not doing so. Wasn’t it a giant hand anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/59 "2009-07-16T23:13:03Z")
The scene in the comic book where Dan and Laurie fight the street gang of Knot Tops was quite groundbreaking at the time, too. They are just a couple of very well trained people, and they win by the most realistic way: fighting dirty, going after the eyes and the testicles. You hardly ever see Captain America doing that. The OTT, wire-flying action is probably the biggest change from the original. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164/60 "2009-07-16T23:13:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Maybe Dad was just the smart one. Having said that, I don’t recall him screaming in terror. Nor do I recall him not doing so. Wasn’t it a giant hand anyway? Darn - you’re right. A giant hand comes through the roof. I’m quite sure about the scream coming from Dan though (though as you say, it’s a pretty reasonable thing to do under the circumstances). I love Dr. Manhattan’s speech at that point - “I’m disappointed in you. … that didn’t kill Osterman; did you think it would kill ME!” (paraphrased) P.S. Intrinsic field removal (the technical term in the book for what happened to Osterman) is called out in Ookla the Mok’s song “Stranger in the Mirror” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-saw-watchmen-questions-for-fans-of-the-graphic-novel/503164.md?page=4)