# Just want to make sure everyone is clear that the Bill of Rights were the People’s rights, not the states, not the state militia. (Gun related) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 30, 2024, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468 "2024-08-30T12:19:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/1 "2024-08-30T12:19:49Z")
Just want to make sure everyone is clear that the Bill of Rights were the People’s rights, not the states, not the state militia. All 10 amendments in the BIll of rights clearly refer to “the people” (including the second amendment). Often the words “the right of THE PEOPLE” is ignored in the argument against the second amendment. If the founders wanted the right reserved to the state, they would have said so…like in the 10th, where the right is clearly stated as reserved to the state or the people. THe argument that the 2nd, is a right reserved to the state through the state militia is clearly incorrect. My statement has nothing to do with the morality of the second amendment or if it should be changed or modified…my statement only refers to the text in the original Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/2 "2024-08-30T13:05:59Z")
The Tenth Amendment doesn’t mention any specific rights, and the Founders’ writings make it clear that there was significant dispute about whether the BOR was preserving individual rights or limiting the power of government. The only thing you’re “making clear” is your personal interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/3 "2024-08-30T13:42:47Z")
I’ll accept that. But just because its ‘my personal interpretation’ doesn’t mean it is NOT the accepted interpretation. If you don’t agree that the second amendment was clearly intended to preserve the right of the people to keep and bear arms, please tell me how you achieved that personal interpretation yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/4 "2024-08-30T13:57:57Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > If you don’t agree that the second amendment was clearly intended to preserve the right of the people to keep and bear arms, please tell me how you achieved that personal interpretation yourself. Because the founding fathers weren’t idiots, and if they wanted people to keep and bear arms for their own sake they wouldn’t have made literally half of the amendment’s text focus on a well regulated militia? None of the other amendments do this. The 1st Amendment doesn’t say “Free and vibrant discourse being necessary to the political well-being of a nation…” before talking about how the government cannot restrict speech or assembly. The 4th amendment tells us we can’t have unreasonable search and seizure without a treatise explaining why that right is important. If the clause about a well regulated militia is not relevant in any way, shape, or form, why is it there in the first place? If your personal interpretation disregards half the text of the amendment, please explain how you logically justify this. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/5 "2024-08-30T15:56:19Z")
I think Babale is correct. The NRA and its subsidiary, the GOP, love love love the Second Half of the Second Amendment. They rarely talk about the first half, and when they do it’s nonsense like “every male is a member of the militia” or “well-regulated means in working order”. I don’t buy either of those excuses. The militia has been replaced by the National Guard. If you’re in the NG, yes you’re entitled to weapons of war. If you aren’t in the NG, you have rights only as deemed fit by the government. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/6 "2024-08-30T22:40:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the clause about a well regulated militia is not relevant in any way, shape, or form, why is it there in the first place? It is astonishing how so many people gloss over this or just outright “re-interpret” to suit their view. None of them can explain how _individuals_ being armed can possibly relate to a militia being well regulated. Or even “regulated” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/7 "2024-08-31T00:22:22Z")
Do we need to point out what “regulated” means? It’s not “regulations” in the 20th+ century meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/8 "2024-08-31T00:23:53Z")
Please, point out your interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/9 "2024-08-31T00:35:28Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Do we need to point out what “regulated” means? It’s not “regulations” in the 20th+ century meaning of the word. Do we need to point out what “arms” means? It’s not “arms” as in the 21st century meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/10 "2024-08-31T00:47:48Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > Just want to make sure everyone is clear that the Bill of Rights were the People’s rights, not the states, not the state militia. I think that the framers of the Bill of Rights missed getting that memo, given that one of the Amendments literally talks about powers being reserved by the states. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/11 "2024-08-31T00:54:52Z")
Actually, most of the Bill of Rights was more like the Bill of Restrictions. That is, restrictions on the federal government. Where the Bill of Rights began to take on a true individual rights framework was with the 14th amendment and the last century and a half of jurisprudence stemming from it. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/12 "2024-08-31T01:22:23Z")
I think it’s pretty obvious “the people” mentioned in the First Amendment, and “the people” mentioned in the Second Amendment, are the same people. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/13 "2024-08-31T03:07:43Z")
> **[Barron v. Baltimore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barron_v._Baltimore)** > > Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833), is a landmark United States Supreme Court case in 1833, which helped define the concept of federalism in US constitutional law. The Court ruled that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the state governments, establishing a precedent until the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. > The city of Baltimore, Maryland initiated a public works project that involved the modification of several streams that emptied i... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/14 "2024-08-31T03:20:46Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I think it’s pretty obvious “the people” mentioned in the First Amendment, and “the people” mentioned in the Second Amendment, are the same people. Yes, and they are the same people that organize into a well regulated militia ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/15 "2024-08-31T20:15:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because the founding fathers weren’t idiots, and if they wanted people to keep and bear arms for their own sake they wouldn’t have made literally half of the amendment’s text focus on a well regulated militia? It was a compromise. Some members of the Convention insisted the the states have the right to a militia, other members wanted the right of the people to keep a gun for self defence, hunting (an actual need in many parts of the early nation) and - of course to call them together to form a militia. Rather than two Rights, they lumped them together. The British would go door to door to round up muskets, etc. There is no doubt that the framers of the 2nd wanted to protect BOTH- the right of an individual to own a musket, and the right of a State to have a militia- which of course would be composed of the men who owned muskets. There are two Rights lumped into one Right, which they did a lot- see 1st Ad, 5th Ad, 8th etc. The Supreme Court has made this clear. The 2nd is also an individual right. No one denies the right of a state to have it’s own Militia- which is not the National Guard- at least anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/16 "2024-08-31T20:17:43Z")
Because two sentences to cover two different rights was just impossible to contemplate? BTW, the history of the Supreme Court and the 2nd Amendment isn’t half as simple as you make it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/17 "2024-08-31T20:22:09Z")
“Rights” are whatever courts interpret them to be. None of our opinions matter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/18 "2024-08-31T20:22:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The 2nd is also an individual right. Well, alright then. Smoothbore muskets for all! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/19 "2024-08-31T20:23:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because two sentences to cover two different rights was just impossible to contemplate? Every Supreme court case has had no issue, and the Writers thought it was clear. Even the oldest supreme Court gun case- which confirmed that the Feds could make laws prohibiting (in that specific case) sawed off shotguns- stated that such a weapon was not traditionally, a militia style weapon. Every writer thought they had made things clear. Two related Rights- just like several other Amendments. Men had the right to own a musket- States had the Right to a Militia- which would generally be composed of men with their own muskets. Now you can argue that they had no idea morons would be toting a AK47 to the local Walmart, but that is a different argument entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/20 "2024-08-31T23:52:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It was a compromise. Some members of the Convention insisted the the states have the right to a militia, other members wanted the right of the people to keep a gun for self defence, hunting (an actual need in many parts of the early nation) and - of course to call them together to form a militia. Rather than two Rights, they lumped them together. Do you mean Congress there? The Convention didn’t draft the 2nd Amendment. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468.md?page=2)