# Just what laws have been broken here? And the leeway police have with students **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436 "2009-02-18T20:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/61 "2009-02-19T16:00:29Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think our students get a pretty bad deal and it harms us all in the end (treat your students like criminals and you will get students who act like criminals) but this particular case doesn’t seem to outrageous to me. How about this - when my students act like adults, they get treated like adults. However, when they act like entitled, spoiled, pissy little bitches, I treat them like children. And when a cell phone goes off in my lecture for the fifth time, I ask them to leave for the day. You’d think I was asking them to strip down in front of their classmates. Confiscating a source of disruption for the duration of a single class period is not theft, and students who are asked to act like adults are not being treated like criminals. I, for one, am sick and tired of teachers, professors, and other authority figures in educational settings being viewed as oppressive ogres when we ask students to behave in ways other than out-of-control primates. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/62 "2009-02-19T16:05:10Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > **Just what laws have been broken here?** From **your own** link: > [@](#): > > …but was then arrested for lying to the police about not having a phone, as well as lying when the officers attempted to ask for the girl’s phone number. And, although not a charge, what about disrupting public order, particularly an education environment? I’ve read naught but the OP, and I’m sure others have already pointed out the obvious, I would just like to echo the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/63 "2009-02-19T16:08:02Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I see why the police were called. Seems reasonable when the student refuses to leave the classroom. > > Ok, but this still doesn’t explain why the police were able to strip search her… to look for a cell phone? Again, I’m sure this has been addressed, but: Because they had reasonable suspicion that she was conceiling a device used to disrupt public order and the learning environment. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/64 "2009-02-19T16:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > **Jenaroph** said: > Both you and catsix seem to have missed the fact that the girl got the phone back at the end of class. That’s not theft, that’s a temporary removal of a disruption. What does this professor do when someone refuses to hand over the phone? Because you certainly cannot take it by force. > [@](#): > > If a high school or college student can’t behave better than a third grader, they deserve to be treated like a third grader. You might be able to get away with using physical force to take an item from a minor in an elementary or secondary school, but I’d really doubt you could accomplish this if you attempted to use force on an adult in post-secondary. > [@](#): > > **Mince** said: > Because they had reasonable suspicion that she was conceiling a device used to disrupt public order and the learning environment. Did you type that with a straight face? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/65 "2009-02-19T16:18:27Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Both you and **catsix** seem to have missed the fact that the girl got the phone back at the end of class. That’s not theft, that’s a temporary removal of a disruption. And students were informed in writing in the syllabus and in the first class that this would be the consequence for using phones in class. It wasn’t a whim (apart from the bit about addressing the caller); it was a department-supported policy. And it wasn’t applied in a draconian fashion. Usually the texters, when spotted, were simply shamed into putting the phone away by stopping the class and pointedly waiting for them to finish, but this particular student was holding a conversation - and not a quiet one - in the middle of a lecture, and blatantly ignored signs to put the phone away. I’m not sure what the recourse would have been if confiscating the phone wasn’t an option but I suspect it would be the same as for any other student who was wilfully disrupting a class in some fashion - a call to campus security to remove the disruptive student, and subsequent disciplinary action. The university was not sad to see her go - she did this with most of her classes and was failing them all (surprise). It’s probably also worth mentioning that this was a UK university - the fear of litigation for enforcing order is not as great as in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/66 "2009-02-19T16:18:35Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > What does this professor do when someone refuses to hand over the phone? Because you certainly cannot take it by force. I’m not sure which professor you were addressing, but THIS professor tells them to get out of the classroom. And to anticipate your next question, if they refuse to leave when asked, I call campus security and THEY remove them. No, I’ve never had to do that - generally, when a student forgets to turn off their phone and it rings, they are embarrassed enough to apologize and turn it off. I’ve had a few students in my 11 years of teaching actually ANSWER the phone in class, and only one of those did I have to say “leave” (and she did). Most students do know how to behave in a classroom setting. For the few that do not, asking them to leave a classroom that they are disrupting is not treating them like criminals, confiscating a ringing phone is not theft, and we are not crushing their precious little snowflake spirit by having behavioral expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/67 "2009-02-19T16:23:31Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Did you type that with a straight face? Like as not, regardless of the age of the transgressor, laws have to upheald. The teen was “allegedly” disrupting the public, but the police could not determine that unless they could identify the instrument of disruption. What then, if the accused was hiding such instrument down her pants? “Hey little girl, don’t do this again, ok?” Obviously that was not going to avail. And WTF\* did the term “strip search” come from, as related to this issue? The OP’s imagination? The term in the article was “frisk down,” quite different from “strip search.” \*Where the fuck ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/68 "2009-02-19T16:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gyrate** said: > And it wasn’t applied in a draconian fashion. Usually the texters, when spotted, were simply shamed into putting the phone away by stopping the class and pointedly waiting for them to finish, but this particular student was holding a conversation - and not a quiet one - in the middle of a lecture, and blatantly ignored signs to put the phone away. If someone is texting with their phone set to silent, how is this any more disruptive than if they are drawing doodles instead of taking notes? Do you inspect their notebooks to be sure they’re not disrupting the class by writing song lyrics instead of notes? > [@](#): > > **Mince** said: > Like as not, regardless of the age of the transgressor, laws have to upheald. The teen was “allegedly” disrupting the public, but the police could not determine that unless they could identify the instrument the teen used. She was allegedly disrupting the public prior to the time that she was searched, which was after she had already left the class where the teacher confronted her. I would like to know whether the phone was making any noise, or whether it was set to operate silently, and whether her texting or the teacher stopping class was more disruptive. I also find it ridiculous to start applying laws like ‘disturbing the peace’ over a few minutes of interruption. It seems to me that such a thing does not warrant criminal charges, nor is a mobile phone in and of itself an ‘instrument of disrupting the public’. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/69 "2009-02-19T16:41:00Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > …nor is a mobile phone in and of itself an ‘instrument of disrupting the public’. Nor is a hammer an instrument of murder, when used to hammer nails. > [@](#): > > …and whether her texting or the teacher stopping class was more disruptive. Who can say. But I’m pretty sure the teacher would not have stopped the class to ask the student to stop texting if the student was not texting. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/70 "2009-02-19T16:57:47Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > If someone is texting with their phone set to silent, how is this any more disruptive than if they are drawing doodles instead of taking notes? Do you inspect their notebooks to be sure they’re not disrupting the class by writing song lyrics instead of notes? The difference between K-12 and college is that in K-12 teachers still are responsible for helping kids learn _in spite of themselves_. There is a steady shifting of that responsibility as kids age–a third grade teacher is much more responsible for motivating/focusing students than a 9th grade teacher. Hell, I take more responsibility for my 11th grade student’s learning than for my 12th grade students learning, and even more responsibility for their learning in the fall than I do in the spring. It’s a steady shift to the students as they mature and become increasingly capable of making choices themselves. So if I taught 9th grade I might check and see if they are taking notes. By 11th grade, I wouldn’t, but I’d insist they at least listen–no sleeping or texting. By the end of 12th grade, I wouldn’t keep roll if the state didn’t make me. It’s a process. > [@](#): > > I also find it ridiculous to start applying laws like ‘disturbing the peace’ over a few minutes of interruption. It seems to me that such a thing does not warrant criminal charges, nor is a mobile phone in and of itself an ‘instrument of disrupting the public’. Except this was part of a pattern–there are lots of lesser steps in the process, as I mentioned in post #48, but it seems like they had been tried and failed in this particular case. If someone is disruptive for a few minutes every day, it needs to be dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/71 "2009-02-19T17:26:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The difference between K-12 and college is that in K-12 teachers still are responsible for helping kids learn _in spite of themselves_. You’ve preempted me, for verily this was my next argument. I’m glad however; you seem to have stated it more eloquently than I intended. A disruption does not have to involve more than one student. If a student is not concentrating in class, they are disrupting **themselves** , which is none-the-less a disruption of the learning process, for which, particularly at that age, and as you say, the teacher is especially responsible. [QUOTE=catsix] I also find it ridiculous to start applying laws like ‘disturbing the peace’ over a few minutes of interruption. [/QUOTE] It lasted only minutes because the teacher, rightfully and quckly, confronted the student. Who can say how long it would have lasted otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/72 "2009-02-19T17:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Manda JO** said: > By 11th grade, I wouldn’t, but I’d insist they at least listen–no sleeping or texting. My point was more along the lines that silent text messaging is no more disruptive to the class as a whole than silent anime drawing, IMO. The only difference that I can see is that it’s easier for a teacher to make a production out of texting, since they can’t see as easily what a student is actually writing and/or drawing. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/73 "2009-02-19T18:03:47Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > My point was more along the lines that silent text messaging is no more disruptive to the class as a whole than silent anime drawing, IMO. > > The only difference that I can see is that it’s easier for a teacher to make a production out of texting, since they can’t see as easily what a student is actually writing and/or drawing. But as Mince says, it’s disruptive to the student doing the texting, and while a student that is doodling or writing out song lyrics may well also be listening, a student who is engaged in a conversation–even a written one–is almost certainly not. Do you agree it’s reasonable for K-12 teachers to have rules like this in place? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/74 "2009-02-19T18:08:04Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Seriously? I also teach at a university, and while I would kick a student out of class if they refused to put away their gadgets, I certainly wouldn’t steal from them. Agreed. I have kicked students out of a COLLEGE class (though that was a rarity). I would never dream of trying to confiscate something from them. When I taught HS I would and did confiscate, but gave it right back at the end of class. Sure, I could have escalated up…but unless they were beligerant about it…why? Sure, I had routine offenders…they just had it taken from them right away because I would be watching. That being said, they cooperated and maybe my taking it lightly but firmly played into that. I don’t know. I had a horrible student teaching experience where I ran into many discipline problems…even organized ones. When I went out teaching, I had few discipline problems…probably because I learned to develop mannerisms/behaviors that defused problem students…or I could have been just lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/75 "2009-02-19T18:08:43Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > My point was more along the lines that silent text messaging is no more disruptive to the class as a whole than silent anime drawing, IMO. > > The only difference that I can see is that it’s easier for a teacher to make a production out of texting, since they can’t see as easily what a student is actually writing and/or drawing. What’s texting got to do with it? Back in the olden days _snerk_, I got in trouble more than I care to admit for writing notes in class. Even if I wasn’t passing them but got caught writing one, I’d likely be sent out of the room, note confiscated. Why would the teacher make a production out of that? I wasn’t carrying anything into the classroom that wasn’t allowed. I wasn’t disrupting anyone’s learning experience but my own. Perhaps it’s for the same reason **Manda Jo** mentioned, I was disrupting my own learning experience for which the teacher was responsible in seeing me have. You could say that sending me out didn’t remedy that, but eventually I wised up and stopped writing notes. I guess you could say that the consequences had a cumulative impact. Actions must have consequences. If the school says “no cell phones” in class, the teacher has every right and responsibility to enforce it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/76 "2009-02-19T18:12:19Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > The only difference that I can see is that it’s easier for a teacher to make a production out of texting, since they can’t see as easily what a student is actually writing and/or drawing. By that logic, students passing notes are not disrupting the class either. But in my day, that sort of activity got shut down pretty quick. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/77 "2009-02-19T18:14:07Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What’s texting got to do with it? Back in the olden days _snerk_, I got in trouble more than I care to admit for writing notes in class. Get out of my head! ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/78 "2009-02-19T18:46:44Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Get out of my head! _stumble around tdn’s head_ Where’s the light switch? _starts to worry_ I can’t find the exit! You do realize this is a fire code violation! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/79 "2009-02-19T18:47:42Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > I had a horrible student teaching experience where I ran into many discipline problems…even organized ones. When I went out teaching, I had few discipline problems…probably because I learned to develop mannerisms/behaviors that defused problem students…or I could have been just lucky. Both, I’d think. In all my years of teaching, I’ve had one class that I couldn’t control with good humor and the occasional glare–but that one was a doozy. I had perfect attendance that year because I had such an insane mix of kids I could NEVER leave them with a sub. If anything, the fact that the school took this seriously enough to call an officer who took it seriously enough to make an arrest suggests it was a significant situation–those teachers who manage to get into confrontations with students all the time usually, IME, find their administrative support withering away. It’s when a teacher that never has a problem calls down for assistance that everyone comes running. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/80 "2009-02-19T18:56:43Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > _stumble around tdn’s head_ > Where’s the light switch? > _starts to worry_ > I can’t find the exit! You do realize this is a fire code violation! > 😃 Sorry about the darkness. There, I’ve opened my eyes. That should let enough light in. You’ll find exits at either end of my head. Just follow the music. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=5)