# Just what laws have been broken here? And the leeway police have with students **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436 "2009-02-18T20:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![slime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@slime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slime)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/81 "2009-02-19T19:45:07Z")
Just caught a little of this on the news last night, it seems the father doesn’t have a problem with the ticket the girl recieved and believes she deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![Wiggie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/0ea827/32.png) [@Wiggie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wiggie)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/82 "2009-02-19T20:12:59Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > (In order to be a strip search there must be striping. I doubt anyone was naked in this incident.) I understand most inmates wear khaki now, not stripes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/83 "2009-02-19T20:17:30Z")
> [@Wiggie](#): > > I understand most inmates wear khaki now, not stripes. Sorry I meant stippling. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/84 "2009-02-19T20:28:11Z")
If there was indeed a sexual assault involved, it might have been schtupping. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/85 "2009-02-19T21:22:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > What else can you do? She refused to obey instructions. You’re not allowed to physically force her to comply. You can’t let the rest of the students see her get away with it. Shoot her? I stayed out of this argument so far. There are some things that justify calling the police and having them make an arrest. There are other things that the school could and should deal with for themselves. I don’t care if she was texting, lied about it, and got stubborn. She could have gone to detention, been suspended, or been expelled. Having a cell phone is not a crime. texting is not a crime. Being a rude little asshole is not a crime. The school should have left the police out of it and handled it themselves. End of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/86 "2009-02-19T21:46:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Being a rude little asshole is not a crime. The school should have left the police out of it and handled it themselves. It’s not like the school _called_ the cops. The School Resource Officer _is_ a cop, on duty at the school. Most schools have them these days. Heck, the SRO’s office at my school is all of 30 feet from my classroom. If I called for security, it is very likely that our SRO would be the first to respond. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/87 "2009-02-19T21:50:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Shoot her? > > I stayed out of this argument so far. > > There are some things that justify calling the police and having them make an arrest. There are other things that the school could and should deal with for themselves. I don’t care if she was texting, lied about it, and got stubborn. She could have gone to detention, been suspended, or been expelled. Having a cell phone is not a crime. texting is not a crime. Being a rude little asshole is not a crime. The school should have left the police out of it and handled it themselves. > End of discussion. Why on earth is suspending or expelling a student–which derails their education, often permanently–a less extreme route than calling a cop and giving her an expensive ticket (which almost certainly would have been the result if she hadn’t resisted even that option)? Even now, she ends up with a court date and community service and/or a fine–real punishments that she won’t want to repeat, instead of simply letting her get out of school for some period of time. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/88 "2009-02-19T22:12:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why on earth is suspending or expelling a student–which derails their education, often permanently–a less extreme route than calling a cop and giving her an expensive ticket (which almost certainly would have been the result if she hadn’t resisted even that option)? Even now, she ends up with a court date and community service and/or a fine–real punishments that she won’t want to repeat, instead of simply letting her get out of school for some period of time. This was not a criminal matter. No LAWS were broken. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/89 "2009-02-19T22:41:05Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If I forcibly stripped searched someone that’s sexual assault, but when the cops do it for no good reason what is it? > > The officer deserves to be a registered sex offender and jail time, unless the cops are above the law. What kind of weak-kneed liberal are you? The police officer took an innocent girl out of class, stipped her, gang raped her (by himself!) and then, when she could take no more, he emptied his revolver into her, 14 shots into her body. Then he reloaded and put another 14 more into her head. And you want to let that monster off with a slap on the wrist? What is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/90 "2009-02-20T05:43:14Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This was not a criminal matter. No LAWS were broken. She was arrested for breaking one. It is very hard to determine from a dry police report or a quick news story exactly the level of disruptive behavior occurred. You also don’t know what steps were taken with the student prior to this incident. I guarantee this wasn’t a simple case of being a little rude. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/91 "2009-02-20T12:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **Manda JO** said: > But as Mince says, it’s disruptive to the student doing the texting, and while a student that is doodling or writing out song lyrics may well also be listening, a student who is engaged in a conversation–even a written one–is almost certainly not. Do you agree it’s reasonable for K-12 teachers to have rules like this in place? A text message conversation doesn’t take any more concentration away from a lecture than really intent drawing of comic book characters. I spent the vast majority of my years from K-12 not paying attention. What I found was that if there was something being said that was worth paying attention to I didn’t have any difficulty actually listening to it. What would be better is, rather than a rule that says you have to pay attention to re-learning what you already know, or what is so hopelessly over your head that you’ll never get it, kids are grouped according to knowledge and ability rather than age. That way, they can pay attention because they want to. That of course will never happen, so by all means throw them out of class for not paying attention. That’s a far better way to make sure they actually hear the lecture. > [@](#): > > **Brown Eyed Girl** said: > Perhaps it’s for the same reason Manda Jo mentioned, I was disrupting my own learning experience for which the teacher was responsible in seeing me have. I ‘disrupted my own learning experience’ for about thirteen years because whatever class I was in was always a few years behind my actual knowledge. Still kind of sore about being forced to pay attention to learning how to add and subtract when I already knew how to factor quadratics. > [@](#): > > **Loach** said: > She was arrested for breaking one. Yeah, they trumped up some charges of disturbing the peace and lying to cops. For one thing, ‘disturbing the peace’ is an over-used catch all that in cop-speak means ‘I don’t have a real crime to charge you with, but I don’t like you so I’m going to charge you with this very abstract thing and make your life miserable for a while’, and for another, I don’t see anything that’s wrong with lying to cops, especially since they can lie as much as they want. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/92 "2009-02-20T14:09:03Z")
Don’t ever change. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/93 "2009-02-20T14:29:26Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > A text message conversation doesn’t take any more concentration away from a lecture than really intent drawing of comic book characters. I spent the vast majority of my years from K-12 not paying attention. What I found was that if there was something being said that was worth paying attention to I didn’t have any difficulty actually listening to it. > > What would be better is, rather than a rule that says you have to pay attention to re-learning what you already know, or what is so hopelessly over your head that you’ll never get it, kids are grouped according to knowledge and ability rather than age. That way, they can pay attention because they want to. > > That of course will never happen, so by all means throw them out of class for not paying attention. That’s a far better way to make sure they actually hear the lecture. > > I ‘disrupted my own learning experience’ for about thirteen years because whatever class I was in was always a few years behind my actual knowledge. Still kind of sore about being forced to pay attention to learning how to add and subtract when I already knew how to factor quadratics. I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that this young lady is not the intellectual giant that you are. I’m thinking that paying a little attention in class would not have killed her. [sub]basing this solely on her hiding the cell phone in her butt cheeks[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/94 "2009-02-20T15:36:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you fucking stupid? Again, she was NOT strip-searched, she was FRISKED. Now apparently it’s come to light the op misrepresented, or didn’t understand the situation. Frisked is different. > [@](#): > > And surely you’re not saying ALL strip-searches are “sexual assault?” :rolleyes: Yes, as the op said, a strip search over of a cell phone is sexual assault. Why wouldn’t it be? Can I rip off your clothes off by force to see if you have any unauthorized cellphones? If I did would that be assault? How about a cavity search? Maybe you’re coochie stuffing that contraband phone. You’re the queen ape of the retard forest if you can’t see why strip searches couldn’t be traumatic. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/95 "2009-02-20T16:08:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Would this have been the same if it was an adult in an analogous situation? A lot of colleges have rules about disruptive students in class outlined in their student handbooks. If you don’t leave a classroom when instructed by a professor you can be arrested for trespassing. I’ve only been in one class where the instructor kicked students out but he did that because they were talking while he was trying to give instructions even after he told them to quit several times. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/96 "2009-02-20T16:18:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Now apparently it’s come to light the op misrepresented, or didn’t understand the situation. Frisked is different. > > Yes, as the op said, a strip search over of a cell phone is sexual assault. Why wouldn’t it be? > > Can I rip off your clothes off by force to see if you have any unauthorized cellphones? If I did would that be assault? > > How about a cavity search? Maybe you’re coochie stuffing that contraband phone. > > You’re the queen ape of the retard forest if you can’t see why strip searches couldn’t be traumatic. I need clarification. Is it the strip search _over a cell phone_ that would trouble you, or all strip searches? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/97 "2009-02-20T16:43:15Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > A text message conversation doesn’t take any more concentration away from a lecture than really intent drawing of comic book characters. I spent the vast majority of my years from K-12 not paying attention. What I found was that if there was something being said that was worth paying attention to I didn’t have any difficulty actually listening to it. You’re right. Teachers cannot perfectly insure that kids are all paying attention. However, they can make sure that more kids are paying attention more of the time. It’s still worth doing. > [@](#): > > What would be better is, rather than a rule that says you have to pay attention to re-learning what you already know, or what is so hopelessly over your head that you’ll never get it, kids are grouped according to knowledge and ability rather than age. That way, they can pay attention because they want to. Except in high school kids generally are grouped, if not by ability, then by choice, into classes of different difficulty. If even a full slate of AP classes isn’t enough to challenge a child, there are ways to skip straight ahead to college. As I already explained, as kids age (both chronologically and psychologically), we gradually allow them more and more leeway to decide what they need to pay attention to and what they don’t. A typical second grader really doesn’t see the connection between paying attention now and understanding later. A typical ninth grader may understand the connection but not be able to really understand the opportunity cost of passing up understanding in order to flirt with some girl (or boy). A typical 12th grader has a sense of what is at stake and what the cost is. > [@](#): > > That of course will never happen, so by all means throw them out of class for not paying attention. That’s a far better way to make sure they actually hear the lecture. Throwing them out is a last resort after the methods that keep them in class have failed. At that point, the hope is that throwing them out for half a day (and giving them an expensive ticket) will make enough of an impression that the less radical methods will work in the future. It’s a long-term strategy. > [@](#): > > I ‘disrupted my own learning experience’ for about thirteen years because whatever class I was in was always a few years behind my actual knowledge. Still kind of sore about being forced to pay attention to learning how to add and subtract when I already knew how to factor quadratics. I am sorry you lacked the resources or know-how to work the system better than that. However, the point here is that directing student attention is part of a teacher’s job, and a teacher that made no effort whatsoever to do so would not be maximizing the potential of her students as a whole. > [@](#): > > Yeah, they trumped up some charges of disturbing the peace and lying to cops. For one thing, ‘disturbing the peace’ is an over-used catch all that in cop-speak means ‘I don’t have a real crime to charge you with, but I don’t like you so I’m going to charge you with this very abstract thing and make your life miserable for a while’, and for another, I don’t see anything that’s wrong with lying to cops, especially since they can lie as much as they want. How is it a trumped up charge? The student had been told repeatedly by the cop in question what behavior was acceptable and what wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/98 "2009-02-20T18:21:17Z")
I’m waiting to see this file come across my desk after the kid and her parents file for disability bens due to ODD! :rolleyes: (Got a not tremendously different case on my desk right now…) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/99 "2009-02-20T19:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Manda JO** said: > You’re right. Teachers cannot perfectly insure that kids are all paying attention. However, they can make sure that more kids are paying attention more of the time. It’s still worth doing. I guess that depends on your definition of ‘worth it’. It was far more worth it to me to be not paying attention and reading _To Kill a Mockingbird_ in second grade than it was to be told, once again, that I have to count the apples to do the basic arithmetic that I had known how to do since I was three. > [@](#): > > Except in high school kids generally are grouped, if not by ability, then by choice, into classes of different difficulty. If even a full slate of AP classes isn’t enough to challenge a child, there are ways to skip straight ahead to college. There was one AP class in my entire high school. I took it. I never paid attention in there either. I still got a 5 on the exam. > [@](#): > > A typical second grader really doesn’t see the connection between paying attention now and understanding later. A typical ninth grader may understand the connection but not be able to really understand the opportunity cost of passing up understanding in order to flirt with some girl (or boy). A typical 12th grader has a sense of what is at stake and what the cost is. And from my own experience, a typical teacher vastly overestimates the importance of actually listening to their every word. > [@](#): > > At that point, the hope is that throwing them out for half a day (and giving them an expensive ticket) will make enough of an impression that the less radical methods will work in the future. It’s a long-term strategy. For those who really don’t want to be there, it’s a vacation plan. > [@](#): > > I am sorry you lacked the resources or know-how to work the system better than that. I grew up in a rural district miles from anywhere that had no money, no resources, and no opportunity. I spent my time in school ignoring most everything that I was officially being taught because I had my own books to read, and I spent time after school keeping up on math with a friend of my father’s who is a mathematician. I lucked out in chemistry and physics and got a copule of teachers who did let me design my own work, for the most part, as long as I also took the regular tests with the other students. Since I completed all the required classes except for senior English (which they wouldn’t let me take early) by 11th grade, I spent most of my senior year taking art classes and independent study in more chemistry and physics. But for the required bullshit classes that I was forced to take? No, I never paid attention in a single one of them. I mightily pissed off my English Literature teachers all four years when they found out that I’d read all the assigned books before I was 12, and that by the age of fourteen I no longer found it necessary to do daily lessons on how to recognize a noun and a verb. The absolute worst scolding typically comes from the least intelligent teachers, or those who are the most upset at being confronted with someone who is both much younger and more intelligent than they are. > [@](#): > > However, the point here is that directing student attention is part of a teacher’s job, and a teacher that made no effort whatsoever to do so would not be maximizing the potential of her students as a whole. The best way to do that is to say something worthy of attention, and not get all panty-bunched if a student who’s smarter than you decides your lecture really is a waste of their brain cells. > [@](#): > > How is it a trumped up charge? The student had been told repeatedly by the cop in question what behavior was acceptable and what wasn’t. That’s exactly why it is a trumped up charge. It’s the ‘Respect mah authori-tay’ charge. By the time the cop even spoke to this girl, the events were over, the class was over, and she was no longer actively a problem. Shockingly, a teenager was less than respectful in a ‘you will pay attention in class’ lecture. She’s being punished for not prostrating herself enough during Officer Cartman’s lecture. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/100 "2009-02-20T23:02:39Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I need clarification. Is it the strip search _over a cell phone_ that would trouble you, or all strip searches? > > Thanks in advance. Over a phone. I agree there’s times where it might necessary for a strip search, but it’s one of things you need a damn good reason for. That said since it was a frisking, and not a force able stripping. I don’t think the cop committed sexual assault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=6)