# Just what laws have been broken here? And the leeway police have with students **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436 "2009-02-18T20:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/101 "2009-02-20T23:56:42Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > The best way to do that is to say something worthy of attention, and not get all panty-bunched if a student who’s smarter than you decides your lecture really is a waste of their brain cells. OK, I think we’ve went 'round the bend here. This isn’t about YOU. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this kid is smarter than the teacher, or smarter than tree sloth. There is ample evidence that this kid is a trouble maker. And the facts are that this kid was not a victim, but an agressor. She _drove_ the events. She _demanded_ them. Like it or not, a teacher is an authority figure in the school, as is the school cop and the principal. They have to maintain order, and that ain’t easy with kids even in the best of circumstances. Here’s my experience with school. If the teacher cannot maintain order, the kids will _walk all over him_. And then no one learns. I agree that this that should have been handled without police being called. As for the rest of it, you’re out of your mind. The kid should have been expelled and escorted off the premises. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/102 "2009-02-20T23:59:29Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > The kid should have been expelled and escorted off the premises. Suspended. Not expelled. Expelling a student is a rather long, drawn-out procedure that takes weeks at the very least. But she was definitely in line for a 5 day suspension. ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/103 "2009-02-21T00:31:00Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > OK, I think we’ve went 'round the bend here. This isn’t about YOU. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this kid is smarter than the teacher, or smarter than tree sloth. There is ample evidence that this kid is a trouble maker. And the facts are that this kid was not a victim, but an agressor. She _drove_ the events. She _demanded_ them. > > Like it or not, a teacher is an authority figure in the school, as is the school cop and the principal. They have to maintain order, and that ain’t easy with kids even in the best of circumstances. > > Here’s my experience with school. If the teacher cannot maintain order, the kids will _walk all over him_. And then no one learns. > > I agree that this that should have been handled without police being called. As for the rest of it, you’re out of your mind. > > The kid should have been expelled and escorted off the premises. Thank you for saying it better than I could have. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/104 "2009-02-21T04:50:27Z")
Those of you defending this little brat’s actions or claiming that the school over-reacted would not last five minutes as a teacher. Your students would have absolutely no respect for you. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/105 "2009-02-21T06:29:03Z")
When the student refused to leave the classroom, the teacher summoned the School Resource Officer to remove the disruptive student. The SRO is a policeman who works for the school. That is not uncommon and hasn’t been for twenty or twenty-five years. The idea that a teacher can’t remove a student isn’t entirely true. Usually we aren’t supposed to touch a student when removing them because we would have to use force and they might claim that we hurt them, blah, blah. In my last year of teaching I had really had enough of one student who was disruptive but would not leave when I told him to. I don’t know what possessed me to even think of trying this. But I had had enough. I walked over to his desk and put one hand on the back and one hand on the desk part and dragged the desk with him in it across the room, out the door and into the hallway. He looked totally bewildered, the other students were laughing and I felt absolutely wonderful. I did not have any more serious problems from this particular student. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/106 "2009-02-21T06:44:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Suspended. Not expelled. Expelling a student is a rather long, drawn-out procedure that takes weeks at the very least. But she was definitely in line for a 5 day suspension. Or 5 licks with a paddle. Or both. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/107 "2009-02-21T08:56:52Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Those of you defending this little brat’s actions or claiming that the school over-reacted would not last five minutes as a teacher. Your students would have absolutely no respect for you. I claim that the schol over-reacted by arresting the child, and I lasted a lot longer than five minutes as a teacher, so there goes that theory of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/108 "2009-02-21T09:05:54Z")
The school _didn’t_ arrest the child. The police did. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/109 "2009-02-22T08:17:44Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > The kid should have been expelled and escorted off the premises. A teenager was :::gasp::: texting on her phone and being stubborn. And that’s grounds for being denied a high school education. Wow… I can’t say I’d have been completely hunky-dory with someone else trying to take my shit either. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/110 "2009-02-22T08:58:32Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > A teenager was :::gasp::: texting on her phone and being stubborn. And that’s grounds for being denied a high school education. Wow… Way to oversimplify for the sake of reinforcing your own knee-jerk reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/111 "2009-02-22T12:12:59Z")
> [@jackelope](#): > > Way to oversimplify for the sake of reinforcing your own knee-jerk reaction. What action did she take which would justify denying her a high school education? An EXPULSION is the knee-jerk reaction to a kid people feel aren’t worth their time anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/112 "2009-02-23T11:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cyberhwk** : I can’t say I’d have been completely hunky-dory with someone else trying to take my shit either. Gee. I wonder what the solution is…I know! Maybe _she_ shouldn’t waste the teacher’s time and attention! Maybe the teacher has to enforce school rules. Maybe one student texting is no big deal, but a classroom where thirty kids are allowed to text is a madhouse. Oh, wait. You mean that girl can’t have special privileges for texting? Why wouldn’t that work? Okay. She decides to keep her cell phone. (She doesn’t want to give up her shit.) The teacher can’t allow a defiant student to remain in the classroom. Teachers are not going to give up their shit either. So the student has to go. But she won’t go. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/113 "2009-02-23T12:14:31Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The school _didn’t_ arrest the child. The police did. The School Resource Officer arrested the child. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/114 "2009-02-23T12:39:16Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The School Resource Officer arrested the child. What are you trying to say? In every district I have ever heard of School Resource Officer = police officer who works in the school. They are not school employees. They don’t answer to the principal. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/115 "2009-02-23T13:43:12Z")
I am saying that the school is responsible for what is done with children in its care, and that in the circumstances described in the police report, arresting the child was not appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/116 "2009-02-23T19:53:25Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I am saying that the school is responsible for what is done with children in its care, and that in the circumstances described in the police report, arresting the child was not appropriate. So? The school is not responsible for what a police officer does. The police officer is. And the school did not arrest the child, which is what you claimed. ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/117 "2009-02-23T22:13:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I am saying that the school is responsible for what is done with children in its care, and that in the circumstances described in the police report, arresting the child was not appropriate. If arresting wasn’t appropriate, then it isn’t clear to me what was. “Please behave yourself” wasn’t working, neither was an escalating series of warnings. I suppose that they might have given her a suspension or detention, but given her repeated lies and refusal to cooperate on this occasion, I am not sure either of those would have had any effect. I’ve read through the four pages of the police report [here](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0217092samsung1.html) and I don’t really see what the school authorities could/should have done differently. I am sincerely curious as to what different course of action you would suggest on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/118 "2009-02-24T00:18:49Z")
I expect that the school has policies for how to deal with its children, which the police enforce. I would be very surprised to learn that the police do their own thing without working in conjunction with the school and in support of the school policies when it comes to minor matters, such as a child ignoring the directions of a teacher. Ergo unless the officer made the arrest contrary to the school policies, the school caused the arrest of the child. In any event, the arrest was inappropriate, whether in support of inappropriate school polices, or inappropriately contrary to school polices by a school resource officer. As far as it goes concerning a 14 year old student being passive-aggressive by refusing to cease texting, by shuffling rather than walking at a normal pace, by lying to hide the obvious, and assumedly by repeating siilar behaviour on other occasions, I suggest that involvement by a skilled social worker, and possibly psychological assessment and treatment, is called for, rather than arresting the child. Yes, the court system should also provide an entry point to such child services, but first and foremost, the school system should provide an entry point to such child services rather than dodge dealing with the child’s needs by having the child arrested. If the school system is not an entry point to such child services, then the school system is truly messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/119 "2009-02-24T00:29:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I expect that the school has policies for how to deal with its children, which the police enforce. I would be very surprised to learn that the police do their own thing without working in conjunction with the school and in support of the school policies when it comes to minor matters, such as a child ignoring the directions of a teacher. Ergo unless the officer made the arrest contrary to the school policies, the school caused the arrest of the child. Can a police officer make an arrest for something that is not a violation of a particular law or statute? Can he actually arrest someone for “violation of policies?” If so, how would he book that individual? Under what aegis would a court try that individual? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436/120 "2009-02-24T00:34:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I expect that the school has policies for how to deal with its children, which the police enforce. I would be very surprised to learn that the police do their own thing without working in conjunction with the school and in support of the school policies when it comes to minor matters, such as a child ignoring the directions of a teacher. Ergo unless the officer made the arrest contrary to the school policies, the school caused the arrest of the child. I disagree. The person that caused the arrest was the child. Child acts right, Child doesn’t get arrested. Child is at fault, not Teacher, School, Police, Society, Conservatives, Gun Owners, Southerners, or George W. Bush. One of the problems with the country today is nobody dares to blame the child for any damn thing. Precious little snowflakes that can do no wrong–bullshit. Society has rules, and those rules must be followed. Better the child learn that now than go to prison in a few years. Seriously..how many people over 35 think this incident plays out the same way when we were in school? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-what-laws-have-been-broken-here-and-the-leeway-police-have-with-students/486436.md?page=7)